# What is this "Spirituality" you Earthmen speak of? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 27, 2005, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029 "2005-06-27T12:51:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/141 "2005-06-30T12:59:02Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > The ability to know what the outcome will be negates free will. An omniscient being would know that whatever you do will only end up in a specific outcome. No matter what you do will have been anticipated and will have no bearing on the final outcome. > As this being is also omnipotent then all things are possible to it and everything it can think to do it can do. > As this being is also supposedly the creator of the universe and all things in it, then because it is omniscient it knows the final outcome of its creation. It knows what each creature’s fate in its creation will be. There is no way to avoid your fate because it is determined by an omniscient and omnipotent being. > Thus we are puppets on strings dancing to another’s tune. > Is this what you were asking for? Yes, thanks. The idea of omniscient and omnipotent in relation to free will is a tricky one. I don’t think your conclusions are the only ones available. Knowing what I will choose is not the same as chooseing for me and does not deprive me of the ability to choose. Knowing what my desitination is doesn’t determine what path I choose to get there. God knowing my fate is not the same as God determining my fate. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/142 "2005-06-30T13:06:26Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Pretty much. That seems as narrow minded as the fundies. How about wondering about things we don’t know? Wanting to answer unanswered questions? Is that just a waste of time? WHat about beliefs in general. If someone believes kindness is a good thing is that just being gullible? ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/143 "2005-06-30T13:06:50Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Okely dokely. That’s just as well, since this isn’t even a debate. What I’ve told you about these matters are long established statements of fact. This whole sidetrack more properly belonged in General Questions. Thanks for that, I needed a good slap in the face. A Rule is only as good as the data backing it up. If there was nothing to observe then no one would make a rule about it. Your attempts in the past to prove fantasy with logic proves that logic only applies to the real observable world. You can use it to make deductions about how things _may_ work, but only after experimentation can you say that your theory, is in fact, true. So, your original statement that the spiritual = the real is in no way provable that you have demonstrated. You may have a theory, you may use logic to say it is so, but unless you can demonstrate that what you say is true then it is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/144 "2005-06-30T13:17:27Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > . . . as gods, we pursue fulfillment . . . All well and good for you, but I’m not quite ready for deity duty. Maybe after a little more study. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/145 "2005-06-30T13:21:43Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Yes, thanks. The idea of omniscient and omnipotent in relation to free will is a tricky one. I don’t think your conclusions are the only ones available. Knowing what I will choose is not the same as chooseing for me and does not deprive me of the ability to choose. Knowing what my desitination is doesn’t determine what path I choose to get there. > God knowing my fate is not the same as God determining my fate. No problem. Can a human being actually understand what an omniscient and omnipotent being is actually capable of? Can such a creature shut off his ability to see all things so that you can have free will? The ability to do this is the only way that I can conceive of that such a being could not be in complete control of our destiny. Otherwise, such a being would know if you were going to go left or right at the next intersection before you even knew that there was an intersection. If that is the case then we have no free will and our fates have been determined at the time he brought the first piece of matter into being if not before. I don’t discount the possibility of there being a god, but I also don’t discount the possibility that the entire universe was created only a second ago with all our memories implanted into us as we were created. As neither are provable, nor affect me in my daily activities, I don’t think either are worth fussing over much. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/146 "2005-06-30T13:24:54Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Eve, you didn’t address what I said about you in [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6313972&postcount=98). I know you’ve been inundated with responses, but I’m curious what you thought about it. > [@](#): > > God’s love for her is so great that He is willing to let her go, rather than impose Himself on her, since she has no interest in Him. And He wishes her nothing but the happiness that will be hers. Hey, I think I dated this God fellow once, back in the '80s! Good kisser, but he turned out to be married. But really, what you said is very nice—but meaningless for me, as I don’t buy into the whole God/afterlife/eternity deal. I just don’t believe any of that exists, so I galumph happily through life w/o ever thinking about it unless someone posts a thread. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/147 "2005-06-30T13:27:35Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > That seems as narrow minded as the fundies. > > How about wondering about things we don’t know? Wanting to answer unanswered questions? Is that just a waste of time? > > WHat about beliefs in general. If someone believes kindness is a good thing is that just being gullible? None of what you cite is what I understand “spirituality” to be, i.e., has nothing to do with the supernatural in any way. Wondering about things we don’t know is the primary motive for science, for example. ---
**Author:** ![matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@matt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/148 "2005-06-30T14:18:24Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Gambler’s fallacy. That sort of reasoning is why Vegas happily installed history boards at all its roulette wheels. That is not an example of gambler’s fallacy. Gambler’s fallacy is the drawing of _unreasonable conclusions_ from empirical data, e.g. the roulette wheel just came up red five times in a row, so it is now more likely to come up black to “even things out”. If the roulette wheel has come up red five times in a row, statistical cluster. If it’s come up red five hundred times in a row, I’m betting on red before the house notices the black numbers are convex… ---
**Author:** ![matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@matt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/149 "2005-06-30T14:20:47Z")
The above post was in reference to Uzi’s contention below, which I contend is not an example of gambler’s fallacy. > [@Uzi](#): > > If I do it a gazillion times and it always comes out two then I’m pretty much assured that that the next time it will still come out two. ---
**Author:** ![quasixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/65b543/32.png) [@quasixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quasixote)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/150 "2005-06-30T14:39:22Z")
This is pre-cup of coffee… but here is my analogy: If religion were listening to pop music, then spirituality would be singing in the shower. ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/151 "2005-06-30T15:08:16Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > I galumph happily through life w/o ever thinking about it unless someone posts a thread. Uh, _you_ posted this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/152 "2005-06-30T16:11:27Z")
> [@Hoodoo Ulove](#): > > Uh, _you_ posted this thread. . . . in response to two _other_ threads. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/153 "2005-06-30T17:45:44Z")
> [@matt](#): > > That is not an example of gambler’s fallacy. Gambler’s fallacy is the drawing of _unreasonable conclusions_ from empirical data, e.g. the roulette wheel just came up red five times in a row, so it is now more likely to come up black to “even things out”. > > If the roulette wheel has come up red five times in a row, statistical cluster. If it’s come up red five hundred times in a row, I’m betting on red before the house notices the black numbers are convex… Without an axiom of induction, the prediction of a successor is unreasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/154 "2005-06-30T17:50:47Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > “Without an axiom of induction, the prediction of a successor is unreasonable.” . . . as the bishop said to the chorus girl . . . ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/155 "2005-06-30T18:45:03Z")
All in all, does it really matter if there is a god or not? He has no appreciable effect on anyone or any_thing_ on the planet. If there is a god and he _doesn’t_ do anything but “love” us, what difference does it make? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/156 "2005-06-30T19:57:23Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > All He has no appreciable effect on anyone or any_thing_ on the planet. He has in fact had a profound effect on many people and things. > [@](#): > > If there is a god and he doesn’t do anything but “love” us, what difference does it make? Depends on how much you value His love. ---
**Author:** ![matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@matt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/157 "2005-06-30T20:11:15Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Without an axiom of induction, the prediction of a successor is unreasonable. Okay. So there are still axioms involved in making predictions from empirical data. I suggest that in **Uzi’s** example of adding apples, the axiom is implicit. It’s an axiom that shellfish and plants have been able to master, after all. I still fail to see how **Uzi’s** example was a gambler’s fallacy. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/158 "2005-06-30T20:43:26Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > He has in fact had a profound effect on many people and things. > > Depends on how much you value His love. You confuse your hope that a god exists with one that actually DOES. You don’t _know_ that he does, so he can’t have a direct effect on anything. Your hopefulness is what effects the world and your life. And then there are the millions of people who don’t believe who have also had a profound effect on the world. People who we actually KNOW have had a profound effect. This is definitely not a one man show! As far as valuing his “love” (whatever _that_ means), I don’t feel a spiritual vibe coming in from anywhere, so evidently, even if he exists, he has chosen to withhold his love from me – and many others. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/159 "2005-06-30T23:58:51Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > No problem. Can a human being actually understand what an omniscient and omnipotent being is actually capable of? Can such a creature shut off his ability to see all things so that you can have free will? The ability to do this is the only way that I can conceive of that such a being could not be in complete control of our destiny. Otherwise, such a being would know if you were going to go left or right at the next intersection before you even knew that there was an intersection. If that is the case then we have no free will and our fates have been determined at the time he brought the first piece of matter into being if not before. > . I agree. How do we fathom something so far beyond us, still, I don’t see the logic here. Knowing all things is not the same as controling all things. It seems to me that God could know what I will choose and not be controling that choice. A sort of divine intuition. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2005, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/160 "2005-07-01T00:32:13Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > None of what you cite is what I understand “spirituality” to be, i.e., has nothing to do with the supernatural in any way. Wondering about things we don’t know is the primary motive for science, for example. Exactly my point. The desire to know what we don’t know is an importent part of our human make up.It leads us to knowledge and insight. The necessity to make a judgement call and our personnal reasons for that judgement call is a critical part of who we are. For some reason you decide that the unknowns in the spiritual area don’t interest you. Thats your privilage. Even atheists and agnostics should recognize that they can’t prove their postion any more than I can prove God is. So,…for you to dis the wonder of those who dabble in the spiritual and their right to make a judgement call based on their own experience with a sweeping statement that we all are gullible is just plain ignorant. It’s about the same as all blacks have rhythm, all Jews are cheap, and all irish are drunks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029.md?page=9)