# What is this "Spirituality" you Earthmen speak of? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 27, 2005, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029 "2005-06-27T12:51:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2005, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/161 "2005-07-01T01:05:27Z")
**Lear’s\_fool** , the link is much appreciated! > [@](#): > > **Eve** : . . . And I was the dame in the audience blowing Saul Bellow a raspberry. If I have understood you correctly, in the mid-Seventies, when Bellow gave his speech, you were a dame _in spirit_ only. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2005, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/162 "2005-07-01T01:10:56Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > All in all, does it really matter if there is a god or not? He has no appreciable effect on anyone or any_thing_ on the planet. If there is a god and he _doesn’t_ do anything but “love” us, what difference does it make? One thing I can think of is that we wouldn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2005, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/163 "2005-07-01T01:13:27Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > You confuse your hope that a god exists with one that actually DOES. You don’t _know_ that he does, so he can’t have a direct effect on anything. Your hopefulness is what effects the world and your life. And then there are the millions of people who don’t believe who have also had a profound effect on the world. People who we actually KNOW have had a profound effect. This is definitely not a one man show! You make a valid point but it’s still only your opinion. Whether it’s my hope or God effecting me and others is something you can only have an opinion about. Choose to believe or not believe. Speaking for myself , it’s not about what God does in the world. It’s about the truth of who we are. > [@](#): > > As far as valuing his “love” (whatever _that_ means), I don’t feel a spiritual vibe coming in from anywhere, so evidently, even if he exists, he has chosen to withhold his love from me – and many others. Incorrect. If we do not experience God’s love it is because of our own choices. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. You have to open the door and invite him in. Seek communication. Not stand inside and say “if you really loved me you’d knock the door down and tell me so. You wouldn’t allow me to ignore you.” ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2005, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/164 "2005-07-01T01:22:52Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > You confuse your hope that a god exists with one that actually DOES. You don’t _know_ that he does, so he can’t have a direct effect on anything. Your hopefulness is what effects the world and your life. And then there are the millions of people who don’t believe who have also had a profound effect on the world. People who we actually KNOW have had a profound effect. This is definitely not a one man show! > > As far as valuing his “love” (whatever _that_ means), I don’t feel a spiritual vibe coming in from anywhere, so evidently, even if he exists, he has chosen to withhold his love from me – and many others. There are millions of people that know God exists because they have personally experienced His presence and Love. He doesn’t withhold his love from anyone. Everyone has love within them that vibrates to God’s Love. The only thing that blocks God’s Love is fear. Fear blocks love, keeps it at bay. Open up to love, positive things, personal feelings, love one another will show the way. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2005, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/165 "2005-07-01T01:30:04Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Incorrect. If we do not experience God’s love it is because of our own choices. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. You have to open the door and invite him in. Well, the only gods to have knocked at my door in the recent past have been handing out Chinese restaurant menus, Girl Scout Cookies, Watchtowers, or asking me if I see her husband’s truck on the street could I please call the cops, 'cause she’s done got a order of pertection agi’n him. I don’t care if they do represent major religions, I am NOT opening the door and inviting them in! ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2005, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/166 "2005-07-01T01:31:44Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Incorrect. If we do not experience God’s love it is because of our own choices. Or maybe that’s what believers tell themselves in order to rationalise why everyone doesn’t feel the Love. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2005, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/167 "2005-07-01T01:56:47Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Well, the only gods to have knocked at my door in the recent past have been handing out Chinese restaurant menus, Girl Scout Cookies, Watchtowers, or asking me if I see her husband’s truck on the street could I please call the cops, 'cause she’s done got a order of pertection agi’n him. > I don’t care if they do represent major religions, I am NOT opening the door and inviting them in! funny stuff, 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2005, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/168 "2005-07-01T02:10:01Z")
> [@II Gyan II](#): > > Or maybe that’s what believers tell themselves in order to rationalise why everyone doesn’t feel the Love. You are free to believe that. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2005, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/169 "2005-07-01T03:33:30Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I agree. How do we fathom something so far beyond us, still, > I don’t see the logic here. Knowing all things is not the same as controling all things. > It seems to me that God could know what I will choose and not be controling that choice. A sort of divine intuition. If you saw a child poking an electrical socket with a fork, would you not attempt to stop him? Or, would you sit and watch knowing for sure what the outcome will be? If God knows all outcomes then he knows what my decision will be. He knew that from the moment he created the universe, did he not? I can dodge right or left and the outcome will still be what he knows it to be. He also knows what he needs to do to make his presence known to me. I may not know it, but he certainly does. ‘Opening the door and letting him in’, or just ‘feel his love’, isn’t going to work with me. He knows this as that is the way I was created and how my experiences shaped me. Do you agree that he knows you will go to heaven, or not? If so, then it is obvious that he would know if you were going to hell. And being omnipotent then he should be able to do what is necessary to stop you from your bad choices. Just like you’d stop the kid with the fork. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2005, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/170 "2005-07-01T09:26:16Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > You make a valid point but it’s still only your opinion. Whether it’s my hope or God effecting me and others is something you can only have an opinion about. Choose to believe or not believe. Speaking for myself , it’s not about what God does in the world. It’s about the truth of who we are. That’s right. But my current stance is based on evidence, which at present, is _no evidence at all._ I’ve never said it’s not possible…I’ve only said that I have no reason at this point in time to believe there is a spiritual being any more than I could believe fairies exist. Simply put, just because I _want_ it to be doesn’t mean that _is_. [quote}Incorrect. If we do not experience God’s love it is because of our own choices. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. You have to open the door and invite him in. Seek communication. Not stand inside and say “if you really loved me you’d knock the door down and tell me so. You wouldn’t allow me to ignore you.”[/QUOTE] I’ve never refused to answer a door. There simply hasn’t been a knock. Believe me…if I could be the first person in history to actually communicate with God in a way that could be verified…a post card…an e-mail…_something!_, I’d have a reason to believe! ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2005, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/171 "2005-07-01T09:33:35Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > There are millions of people that know God exists because they have personally experienced His presence and Love. > > He doesn’t withhold his love from anyone. Everyone has love within them that vibrates to God’s Love. The only thing that blocks God’s Love is fear. Fear blocks love, keeps it at bay. Open up to love, positive things, personal feelings, love one another will show the way. Lekatt, you persist in your accusation that anyone who doesn’t _feel the love_ is afraid. It simply isn’t the case. You know nothing about an atheist’s or agnostic’s motivation for disbelief except for what you’re told. To insist we’re afraid of something is not only incorrect, but also makes you look like you have a bit of a God complex. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2005, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/172 "2005-07-01T10:34:37Z")
> [@matt](#): > > Okay. So there are still axioms involved in making predictions from empirical data. I suggest that in **Uzi’s** example of adding apples, the axiom is implicit. It’s an axiom that shellfish and plants have been able to master, after all. Whether shellfish and plants have mastered it or not, the very presence of an axiom, implicit or stated, indicates an analytic process. > [@](#): > > I still fail to see how **Uzi’s** example was a gambler’s fallacy. Indeed you do. But he is predicting of what is likely to occur based on past events. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2005, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/173 "2005-07-01T10:39:58Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > You confuse your hope that a god exists with one that actually DOES. You don’t _know_ that he does, so he can’t have a direct effect on anything. Your hopefulness is what effects the world and your life. You are mistaken. My knowledge of His existence is more reliable than my knowledge of my own. > [@](#): > > As far as valuing his “love” (whatever _that_ means), I don’t feel a spiritual vibe coming in from anywhere, so evidently, even if he exists, he has chosen to withhold his love from me – and many others. Unrequited love is a common occurence. I’ve loved people who felt no “vibe” (whatever _that_ means) from me. Perhaps you simply do not find Him to be appealing. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2005, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/174 "2005-07-01T11:42:15Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > If you saw a child poking an electrical socket with a fork, would you not attempt to stop him? Or, would you sit and watch knowing for sure what the outcome will be? If we are spiritual eternal beings who only temporarily dwell in these physical bodies then the physical outcome of this action takes on less dangerous consequences. This is where this type of arguement falls apart for me and becomes illogical. “How can God really love us if he allows us to suffer so?” It’s because God sees who we really are. Spiritual beings. These physical bodies are only fleeting. A blink in the eye of eternity. How serious do you suppose God should take it? When you’re in a dream you believe thats real. Your mind accepts it as such. After you wake up any bad thing that happened in the dream doesn’t matter. > [@](#): > > If God knows all outcomes then he knows what my decision will be. He knew that from the moment he created the universe, did he not? I can dodge right or left and the outcome will still be what he knows it to be. He also knows what he needs to do to make his presence known to me. I may not know it, but he certainly does. ‘Opening the door and letting him in’, or just ‘feel his love’, isn’t going to work with me. He knows this as that is the way I was created and how my experiences shaped me. I don’t believe it’s about reward or punishment. It’s about what is the truth and what isn’t. I reject certain concepts of God as much as you do and it makes perfect sense to do that. God does know what the missing piece of the puzzle is that will sway you but you will choose that experience when you are ready. > [@](#): > > Do you agree that he knows you will go to heaven, or not? If so, then it is obvious that he would know if you were going to hell. And being omnipotent then he should be able to do what is necessary to stop you from your bad choices. Just like you’d stop the kid with the fork. As I said, I don’t believe it’s about reward and punishment. Under those conditions I understand your arguement . Thats why I rejected those beliefs. Certain things just didn’t make sense to me and so I asked questions. The questions for me were if God is, and in God there is only perfect love and justice, then which beliefs seem to fit within the parameters of that concept. Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is within you. There are also quite a few places in the bible where it talks about being judged according to our works and deeds rather than what we think about Jesus. Many places where Jesus tells us that our actions are the true reflection of what spirit lives within us regardless of what we give lip service to. It makes much more sense to me to think of it that way This thread is about spirituality which to me is a rejection of many of the more dogmatic beliefs of organized religion. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2005, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/175 "2005-07-01T11:58:14Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Indeed you do. But he is predicting of what is likely to occur based on past events. I’d suggest that this is how most people do things. They learn from the past and use it to predict what will happen in the future. The rules you quoted were developed from observations of past events to quantify those events in such a way that the predictions of future similar events are more accurate, were they not? > [@cosmosdan](#): > > If we are spiritual eternal beings who only temporarily dwell in these physical bodies then the physical outcome of this action takes on less dangerous consequences. This is where this type of arguement falls apart for me and becomes illogical. Sure the outcome of some kid frying himself becomes less important if it is assured that there is life after death (still someone has to clean up the mess. Think about them, will ya. BBQ kid on the carpet is a bitch to get out, ya know. Imagine a Shroud of Turin effect only a surprised look on the face! Lol!). But if we talk about eternal damnation vs. basking in the glory of god isn’t that a little more serious and shouldn’t I be given unequivacol information to make a decision on? If I choose to reject a known god then I’ve done so with the full knowledge of the consequences of my actions (assuming we would even have free will then). But now I just have your word as to what would happen, and frankly, I don’t know you from Jack even if you have been quite reasonable in this discussion and seem like a nice guy. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2005, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/176 "2005-07-01T12:16:53Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > That’s right. But my current stance is based on evidence, which at present, is _no evidence at all._ I’ve never said it’s not possible…I’ve only said that I have no reason at this point in time to believe there is a spiritual being any more than I could believe fairies exist. Simply put, just because I _want_ it to be doesn’t mean that _is_. Of course thats true. I wonder what the state of science would be if everybody waited for hard evidence. Columbus; “Of course the world might be round. It might be square or triangular. I have no reason to board any ship until someone brings me more than an entertaining about what they believe” > [@](#): > > I’ve never refused to answer a door. There simply hasn’t been a knock. Believe me…if I could be the first person in history to actually communicate with God in a way that could be verified…a post card…an e-mail…_something!_, I’d have a reason to believe! So you want your convictions verified by others? A few times people have come to the door and I didn’t even know it because I was too engrossed in what I was doing. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2005, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/177 "2005-07-01T12:27:04Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Sure the outcome of some kid frying himself becomes less important if it is assured that there is life after death (still someone has to clean up the mess. Think about them, will ya. BBQ kid on the carpet is a bitch to get out, ya know. Imagine a Shroud of Turin effect only a surprised look on the face! Lol!). But if we talk about eternal damnation vs. basking in the glory of god isn’t that a little more serious and shouldn’t I be given unequivacol information to make a decision on? If I choose to reject a known god then I’ve done so with the full knowledge of the consequences of my actions (assuming we would even have free will then). But now I just have your word as to what would happen, and frankly, I don’t know you from Jack even if you have been quite reasonable in this discussion and seem like a nice guy. No it’s like eating at a reaturant. When you’re done you leave the mess behind for someone else to deal with. 🙂 I’ve already said I don’t believe it’s about reward and punishment, so I’m not sure what word of mine you’re refering to.I haven’t said anything about what would happen. In the church I used to attend they believed what you suggested here. Only those who rejected God with full knowledge of same would actually remain apart. It made much more sense to me at the time than the traditional beliefs. Now even that is only an interesting idea. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2005, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/178 "2005-07-01T12:30:28Z")
Well, this has evolved (ha! evolution!) into another “does God exist?” thread. How about: **Can an athiest be spiritual?** How, or why not? ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2005, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/179 "2005-07-01T12:31:32Z")
Or, “ **Can an atheist spell before having any coffee?** ” ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2005, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/180 "2005-07-01T12:32:55Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > But now I just have your word as to what would happen, and frankly, I don’t know you from Jack even if you have been quite reasonable in this discussion and seem like a nice guy. BTW; I never want anyone to base their beliefs on what I’ve said. I see my role as stirring up the thought process and possibly introducing new concepts. I revere peoples right to make their own choices and walk their own path. They should only change when something internal moves them to do so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029.md?page=10)