# What Is Too Much Dairy? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 20, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-too-much-dairy/647808 "2013-01-20T15:51:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Hockey\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a183cd/32.png) [@Hockey\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hockey_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-too-much-dairy/647808/21 "2013-01-21T02:54:48Z")
> [@Michael63129](#): > > It’s interesting that you keep saying that animal fats are really bad, despite my previous post full of cites (actual studies) that indicate that isn’t the case (high fat dairy not linked to CVD, same for meat, red meat, unless processed (bacon, sausages, lunch meat, etc), saturated fats do raise LDL but LDL itself is a broad category, of which the small particles are bad and carbohydrates increase those while saturated fats increase the harmless large particles; note too that saturated fats can be present in significant amounts in plant-based foods too, like palm oil, and yes, avocados): > > Observe that some traditional peoples like the [Inuit](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2374/traditionally-eskimos-ate-only-meat-and-fish-why-didnt-they-get-scurvy) ate what we might consider to be a VERY unhealthy diet today, loaded with gobs of animal fats (fish also has a lot of saturated fat, for example, [salmon](http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/finfish-and-shellfish-products/4259/2), although the omega-3s are very beneficial), with few fruits and vegetables, yet enjoyed good cardiovascular health - until they began eating a Western diet. True, high-fat foods have more calories, but the kind of fat isn’t as important (as long as you get enough of the essentially fats; note that even for those, too much omega-3 can [raise the risk of stroke and other disorders](http://www.livestrong.com/article/386561-can-you-get-too-much-omega-3/), [half a salmon fillet](http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/finfish-and-shellfish-products/4259/2) exceeds the recommended limit of 3 grams per day (on a daily basis, so it isn’t a problem to eat it a couple times a week). Americans don’t eat an Inuit diet. My recommendations have been made using the Dietary Guidelines for Americans. Avocados are high in monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats. An average one contains 30 grams of fat, of which only 5 grams are saturated. All fats contain a mixture of the three in varying levels. There is a lot of study being done in all areas of nutrition and confounding factors are extremely difficult to control for. A lot of the research is contradictory. I’m stating the current Dietary Guidelines. I personally believe all foods are fine in moderation. I didn’t say no animal fat ever! Just that the current guidelines suggest limiting your intake. ---
**Author:** ![Hockey\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a183cd/32.png) [@Hockey\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hockey_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-too-much-dairy/647808/22 "2013-01-21T03:00:51Z")
> [@Michael63129](#): > > Again, why do you have such a problem with MEAT? Do you even know what the average daily caloric intake from meat is? How about around [480 calories per day](http://www.graphoftheweek.org/2012/06/body-weight-in-united-states-part-3.html), out of 2,500? Now, how about added fats and sugars? Oh, around 1,000 calories combined - or twice as much, 40% vs. 20% (fruits and vegetables are only 250 calories, so if you replaced added fats and sugars with those, you increase intake by FIVE fold). Or, don’t eat added fats and sugars at all and you consume only 1,500 calories per day, which is less than most people need. > > And note again: > [Here](http://www.details.com/style-advice/the-body/201105/skim-milk-non-fat-milk-diet-foods) is another article on this, noting that cutting out fat from the diet was no more effective than other forms of weight loss over the long term (fats also help curb appetite, thus the connection between high-fat dairy and weight loss noted above). > > Also, you are so concerned about saturated fat, right? Well, dairy has a LOT of saturated fat in it; a cup of whole milk has 8 grams of fat and 5 grams of saturated fat, over 60% of the total, while beef has a proportion of around 40%; also, milk from other animals (common in other regions) has [even more fat](http://www.milkfacts.info/Nutrition%20Facts/Nutrient%20Content.htm) than cow’s milk (17 grams, 11.2 saturated (over 50% of the RDA), and 265 calories per cup of sheep’s milk; water buffalo has fewer calories but a similar fat content to sheep). > > So in conclusion, attacking meat and/or dairy by claiming that it is causing people to become unhealthy and obese is totally unwarranted (Hey! Drop that doughnut!). NOBODY SAID TO ELIMINATE ALL FAT! I haven’t attacked meat or dairy. I haven’t said any of the things you think I have. ---
**Author:** ![SeaDragonTattoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@SeaDragonTattoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaDragonTattoo)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-too-much-dairy/647808/23 "2013-01-21T03:33:49Z")
Sooo, Hi **Broom**! I’m gonna just do a slightly different direction. I’m not convinced you’re really interested in all the stats and guidelines and debating at this point. My first thought when reading the OP is that there’s maybe a caloric satisfaction/satiation you’re getting from adding a small piece of cheese to your lunch or dinner that hasn’t really been satisfied otherwise. It seems to me the cheese sandwich in the morning is working for you and has for a long time. Wouldn’t change that! I’m wondering how you feel about red beans/black beans/lentils/chickpeas? Maybe a couple times a week add a serving of those, or even quinoa, to replace the cheese? Mix them in with rice, and you have a more complete chain of amino acids you’re putting together which gives you more complete protein. I’ve found that I kinda need a bean/legume/grain protein added into a meal to feel satisfied and like I’ve eaten enough, which I wonder for you if the cheese helps with that satiation feeling. Just leaving a serving of that out and replacing with more green beans wouldn’t be satisfying at all, but maybe a serving of a higher-protein grain or legume (I mention quinoa and lentils because they’re easy) would work? Of course if you hate those, then keep the cheese! And I don’t think it needs to be every day, just when you feel like maybe enough cheese has been had for the week or this half of the week or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Michael63129](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3da27b/32.png) [@Michael63129](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael63129)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-too-much-dairy/647808/24 "2013-01-21T04:03:07Z")
> [@Hockey\_Monkey](#): > > NOBODY SAID TO ELIMINATE ALL FAT! > > I haven’t attacked meat or dairy. I haven’t said any of the things you think I have. Um, read my post again, specifically, the person I quoted there ( **Broomstick** ; “The big problem with animal fats…”) - that isn’t directed toward you. All I’m saying is that if you want a healthier diet, replace processed foods (anything that has sugars and fats listed separately on the label, especially if they come before other food ingredients) with fruits and vegetables and you’ll have a healthier diet than somebody who cuts out meat (like **Broomstick** ). The average American gets more calories from added fats alone (nearly the recommended RDA for fats) than from meat overall (including calories not from fat; for example a can of tuna has about 100 calories, of which 10 are from fat and 90 from protein). The whole point is, the problem with the modern Western diet is all of the “empty calorie” foods (and of course, some of the ways meat is prepared, but not meat itself). ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-too-much-dairy/647808/25 "2013-01-21T11:16:10Z")
> [@Michael63129](#): > > Again, why do you have such a problem with MEAT? No one here has a “problem” with meat. In fact, I stated in my OP I have no intention of going entirely vegetarian. Nor do I strictly limit myself to lean meats, I happily eat high fat items like sausage and bacon I just don’t do it every day. Everything in moderation. I’m also a big fan of eating a _variety_ of everything, which also applies to fats/oils. Nothing wrong with _some_ saturated fat, you just shouldn’t eat a _lot_ of it, or too much of it, with the understanding that “too much” is likely to vary from person to person. So I enjoy olive oil as well as butter, I like bacon fat and even have a couple recopies that use chicken fat. However, I am not an Inuit hunting seals or engaged in back-breaking, unrelenting manual labor on a medieval farm or some sort of marathon runner so excessive calories, in any form, are not a good idea. > [@Michael63129](#): > > Um, read my post again, specifically, the person I quoted there ( **Broomstick** ; “The big problem with animal fats…”) - that isn’t directed toward you. All I’m saying is that if you want a healthier diet, replace processed foods (anything that has sugars and fats listed separately on the label, especially if they come before other food ingredients) with fruits and vegetables and you’ll have a healthier diet than somebody who cuts out meat (like **Broomstick** ). Except that’s not what I said at all. I’m not “cutting out” meat. I am reducing my intake. I also want to increase my fiber, something meat is rather low in. I already eliminated most processed foods from my diet, in fact, I _can’t_ read the “label” on most of what I eat these days because fresh vegetables and plain grains don’t _have_ labels in the sense you mean. So I’ve already done what you suggest and now I’m further refining my diet. When you start cooking from scratch the problem is no longer strange chemicals and hidden fats and sugars, it’s what you yourself are putting into the food. > [@](#): > > The average American gets more calories from added fats alone (nearly the recommended RDA for fats) than from meat overall (including calories not from fat; for example a can of tuna has about 100 calories, of which 10 are from fat and 90 from protein). Most people, however, do not subsist on cans of plain tuna. Make a tuna salad with mayonnaise you’re adding to the fats (and these days, usually sugar, too, unless your a fanatical label reader). A tuna casserole with cream sauce is no longer so lean. None of that is inherently bad, but the fact is that when people start doing their own cooking they _still_ add fats (and sometimes sugars) that were not in the original raw ingredient meats, vegetables, fruits, or grains. > [@](#): > > The whole point is, the problem with the modern Western diet is all of the “empty calorie” foods (and of course, some of the ways meat is prepared, but not meat itself). Yes, and I am concerned that I myself might be adding unnecessary calories (among other things) to my own cooking. It’s not that I’m against “empty calories” on occasion – hey, I like candy, too - but as I said, moderation in all things. I’ve got cookie recipes that are essentially butter and sugar with a little additional flavoring and I love 'em – but I don’t eat them every day, they’re an occasional treat. Can’t blame the Evil Food Industry for those little buggers, they’re entirely my creations! Yet I know people who _have to_ have cookies or candy or some such as a dessert _for every meal_. In fact, one or two of them have expressed disbelief that this is not a universal approach to eating. The modern food industry has done a pretty good job of programming people to keep stuffing those empty calories into themselves and while I might be doing relatively well at resisting the urge myself I am most certainly not entirely immune to their advertising. Most westerners are sedentary so they don’t need the calories for manual labor. It’s not just the meat, as I also noted in my OP I don’t like vegetables drenched in cheese sauce yet the frozen food aisle is filled with “single servings” that are soaked in it, “convenience” foods that are soooo easy to pop into the microwave after a long day at work are loaded with an excess of salt, fat and sugar. Fast food is largely excess calories. A burger is fine occasionally but eating one every day for lunch, unless you’re a manual laborer, is not good long term. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-too-much-dairy/647808/26 "2013-01-21T11:24:16Z")
> [@Hockey\_Monkey](#): > > Avocados are high in monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats. An average one contains 30 grams of fat, of which only 5 grams are saturated. All fats contain a mixture of the three in varying levels. Yes, and it’s a pity I don’t like avocados. ☹ But other people do. I just wish they weren’t near-universal in the sushi around here. Most of which seems to be California rolls and weird “fusion” stuff with a banner saying “fully cooked!” over it. \>sigh\< I like my nigiri and sashimi, but the places that actually serve the more traditional sushi around here are out of my current price range. > [@](#): > > There is a lot of study being done in all areas of nutrition and confounding factors are extremely difficult to control for. A lot of the research is contradictory. I’m stating the current Dietary Guidelines. I personally believe all foods are fine in moderation. I didn’t say no animal fat ever! Just that the current guidelines suggest limiting your intake. The research on diet and nutrition is so complicated and confusing it makes you wonder how our ancestors managed to eat well enough to survive into adulthood, doesn’t it? It’s not just all the various chemicals interacting, it’s also that our bodies have considerable ability to adapt to changing circumstances as well. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-too-much-dairy/647808/27 "2013-01-21T11:35:04Z")
> [@SeaDragonTattoo](#): > > I’m wondering how you feel about red beans/black beans/lentils/chickpeas? Pretty good, except for the ones I’m allergic to - my diet is complicated by multiple food allergies but I don’t really want to get into those here. But both the spouse and I like our legumes. You’re right, I don’t really feel a need to add cheese them I’m having a helping of chickpeas and rice ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-too-much-dairy/647808/28 "2013-01-21T11:56:00Z")
> [@Hockey\_Monkey](#): > > Yes, I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear. I thought that if you were eating too much, you could make a small change to what you were consuming in order to eat the same amount. Most people I encounter don’t want to hear “eat less”, they want alternatives. I try not to view it as “eating less of X” so much as “having more opportunity to try A, B, C, and D”. ---
**Author:** ![Michael63129](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3da27b/32.png) [@Michael63129](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael63129)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-too-much-dairy/647808/29 "2013-01-22T21:20:31Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Except that’s not what I said at all. I’m not “cutting out” meat. I am reducing my intake. I also want to increase my fiber, something meat is rather low in. I already eliminated most processed foods from my diet, in fact, I _can’t_ read the “label” on most of what I eat these days because fresh vegetables and plain grains don’t _have_ labels in the sense you mean. So I’ve already done what you suggest and now I’m further refining my diet. Just curious, how much meat do you normally eat in a day? Here is what the USDA [recommends](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_guide_pyramid#Meat_and_beans): > [@](#): > > The food guide pyramid suggests that adults eat 2–3 servings per day. One serving of meat is 4 oz (110 g), about the size of a deck of cards. (that sounds like a lot, I know that I never eat that much meat in a day despite eating it frequently) Of note, they also recommend a similar amount of dairy (3 cups of milk or equivalent), so replacing meat with dairy will really just keep things similar (and don’t forget that dairy has about twice as much saturated fat for the same total fat intake, if you are still concerned about that). Like I said before, if you are already eating mostly fruits and vegetables, you are eating far more than the average American (who gets only 10% of calories from both combined) and certainly far more than the recommendations (including fiber, and BTW, you CAN get [too much fiber](http://www.fitday.com/fitness-articles/nutrition/healthy-eating/6-health-risks-of-eating-too-much-fiber.html)). Also, since you mentioned eating them, if you are going to reduce your meat intake, cut out meats like bacon and sausages since they are [unhealthy](http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/20100517/processed-meat-linked-to-heart-disease-risks), and not just because they tend to have more fat (lower fat lunch meat included); look at the ingredients label and ensure that it only lists meat (e.g. beef, instead of beef, …, sodium nitrite, etc). ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-too-much-dairy/647808/30 "2013-01-23T02:04:06Z")
> [@Michael63129](#): > > Just curious, how much meat do you normally eat in a day? Here is what the USDA I probably average one serving a day. There are days I eat no meat, and days I eat several servings. > [@](#): > > (and don’t forget that dairy has about twice as much saturated fat for the same total fat intake, if you are still concerned about that). Not particularly - with my cholesterol/lipid stats it’s not a huge concern. > [@](#): > > Also, since you mentioned eating them, if you are going to reduce your meat intake, cut out meats like bacon and sausages I eat those maybe once a week, although sometimes I’ll go an entire month between indulging in those. I’m not terribly concerned with that level of intake. Just because I like something doesn’t mean I eat it every day. I like a _lot_ of different foods, I just keep rotating among them for variety and it keeps me from eating too much of any one thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-too-much-dairy/647808.md?page=1)