# What is Trump a symptom of? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 1, 2016, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-trump-a-symptom-of/747614 "2016-03-01T09:24:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-trump-a-symptom-of/747614/101 "2016-03-02T15:42:07Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I wonder who scared them. I mean this situation has been going on for decades but they are scared to death right now, have been since about January 20th, 2008. They got scared because Bush began his last year in office? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-trump-a-symptom-of/747614/102 "2016-03-02T15:44:29Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Gah. Yes, you found 3 or 4 countries in the world that manage to be relatively stable and happy despite high levels of government spending. Small countries with homogenous populations. > > What you might want to notice, however, is that the large amount of tax revenue they raise comes mostly from higher taxes on LOWER income. The difference between the U.S. and those countries does not come from taxes on the rich: It comes from the fact that their tax systems are less progressive, and that they extract significant amounts of revenue from lower income earners. Norways top tax rate is actually lower than the U.S.'s, and the other nordic countries are only slightly higher. But all of them have higher tax rates on lower incomes. For example, in Sweden anyone who makes between ~2,690 – 62,140 USD gets taxed at 31%. And people that make more than that are taxed at either 51% or 56% > [@](#): > > So, are you telling me that you are advocating a 31% tax bracket for America’s poor and lower middle class, or anything even remotely close to it? Or are you only picking and choosing the things you like about the Scandinavian countries? It depends, what are they getting for that 31%? > [@](#): > > Man, it’s a good thing for your side that you have these nordic outliers you can always cling to as a socialist life raft, because if you didn’t you’d have nothing to say when we point out that all the other countries who embraced socialism were made much worse off because of it. We are probably the least socialist large economy in the world. I don’t think there is a perfect place on the spectrum that we should maintain for all time, do you? ---
**Author:** ![furryman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/furryman/32/99_2.png) [@furryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furryman)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-trump-a-symptom-of/747614/103 "2016-03-02T16:03:12Z")
Apathy and the media. The media seems determined to take everything Trump says seriously. People seem to think that non-politician would do better. There seems to be a general opinion that Trump is a good businessman when he isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-trump-a-symptom-of/747614/104 "2016-03-02T16:20:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why does that meme always come up in these discussions? America’s ethnic diversity might present a political obstacle (in the form of mean-minded white resentment of tax dollars spent on “others”) to the **implementation** of social democracy here, but there is no reason why it should make it any less workable. Nor does America’s vast size – in fact it should work even better here, because of economies of scale. The main problem of diversity (especially among the poor, which is where most of our diversity exists) that I hear about, is that it tends to result in tribalism and gang violence that you might not see in a more homogenous society. I don’t see why social programs would be less effective because of diversity. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-trump-a-symptom-of/747614/105 "2016-03-02T16:36:52Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [For instance?](https://berniesanders.com/issues/) $15 minimum wage; Universal Medicare (probably need more details but it seems unaffordable at the moment); Removing unidentified (likely non-existent) tax “loopholes” for oil companies A carbon tax to greatly reduce the use of fossil fuels BUT no corresponding increase in nuclear or any other currently available and affordable form of energy. ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-trump-a-symptom-of/747614/106 "2016-03-02T18:09:05Z")
The tax loophole for oil companies is likely “Percentage depletion”. They are allowed to claim as a deduction a percentage of their revenue from oil as the cost of depleting the natural resource that they once paid for. This allows them to deduct more than they ever paid for the resource, quite often much much more, which is something that run contrary to standard accounting and tax principles. There are also plenty of other tax laws that are specific to the oil and gas industry that I’m not aware of details of. They likely get quite a lot of other kinds of credits and such. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-trump-a-symptom-of/747614/107 "2016-03-02T18:39:43Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Back to Trump, I feel the whole country is concerned about the illegal immigration issue and we read about how illegal immigration has soared and how messed up our system is to kick out even the ones who are caught. Almost everyday we see headlines discussing things like “[Obama Amnesty](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/mar/1/border-chief-chides-agents-object-obama-amnesty/)”. > > But then finally a candidate comes along and talks tough on the issue. Real tough. That sounds good to alot of people. You do see that sort of almost daily media coverage. In sources like Fox and the Washington Times; a rag more foaming-at-the-mouth than even Fox on a tear. If you read or watch real media, illegal immigration is pretty much a non-issue. Except to the degree some politicians have seized on it in the last 6 months as a boogey man. Oddly enough these politicians are all, every one of them, part of the same group that listens to Fox. The rest of us … not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-trump-a-symptom-of/747614/108 "2016-03-02T19:08:47Z")
Someone mentioned to me today that the closed primaries looked very different than the open ones. Apparently (I haven’t had time to check this claim yet), Trump lost in 3 of the 4 closed primaries, but won the open primaries. Also, turnout for Republicans was way up, while turnout for Democrats was down. This suggests either that some of Trump’s support was due to Democratic strategic voting, or that Trump won by peelng off independents who would otherwise have voted Democrat, or even by picking up moderate Democrats. That would suggest he’s an even bigger threat to Democrats in the general election. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-trump-a-symptom-of/747614/109 "2016-03-02T19:20:37Z")
As far as I know, only the Oklahoma primary has been closed so far, the other closed events have all been caucuses (WY, ND, CO, AK, NV, IA). I’d say the sample size is too small to evaluate. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-trump-a-symptom-of/747614/110 "2016-03-02T19:28:26Z")
Well, you are undoubtedly right about the sample sizes, but it’s interesting to note that Trump lost in Oklahoma, and was only a few percentage points away from coming in 3rd behind Rubio. It would be interesting to compare voter turnout in Oklahoma compared to the open primaries. That might help tell us if the Trump phenomenon is partially due to his appeal with independents and disaffected Democrats. If it is, he becomes almost as much a problem for Democrats in the general election. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-trump-a-symptom-of/747614/111 "2016-03-02T19:41:30Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Someone mentioned to me today that the closed primaries looked very different than the open ones. Apparently (I haven’t had time to check this claim yet), Trump lost in 3 of the 4 closed primaries, but won the open primaries. Also, turnout for Republicans was way up, while turnout for Democrats was down. > > This suggests either that some of Trump’s support was due to Democratic strategic voting, or that Trump won by peelng off independents who would otherwise have voted Democrat, or even by picking up moderate Democrats. That would suggest he’s an even bigger threat to Democrats in the general election. I think that it is a concern, but not by much IMHO. If that was the case (about peeling off independents who would otherwise have voted Democrat, or picking up moderate Democrats) then the polls would had been consistent on showing more support for Trump against Hillary. In the match up polls, support for Trump did go up on early polls, (showing how unreliable they are early, but they become more valid as time goes by) but Trump did not go over Clinton, then the polls have remained consistent for many months and up to now showing Clinton ahead of Trump by 5% or more. [http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/2016-general-election-trump-vs-clinton](http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/2016-general-election-trump-vs-clinton) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-trump-a-symptom-of/747614/112 "2016-03-02T20:12:47Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > $15 minimum wage; > Universal Medicare (probably need more details but it seems unaffordable at the moment); > Removing unidentified (likely non-existent) tax “loopholes” for oil companies > A carbon tax to greatly reduce the use of fossil fuels > BUT no corresponding increase in nuclear or any other currently available and affordable form of energy. While we might debate the wisdom and feasibility of those policies, none is dismissible as “nutty.” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-trump-a-symptom-of/747614/113 "2016-03-02T20:42:51Z")
> [@glowacks](#): > > The tax loophole for oil companies is likely “Percentage depletion”. They are allowed to claim as a deduction a percentage of their revenue from oil as the cost of depleting the natural resource that they once paid for. **This allows them to deduct more than they ever paid for the resource** , quite often much much more, which is something that run contrary to standard accounting and tax principles. You sure about that? I thought depletion was a cost recovery system so that you could only claim depletion deductions up to the point where you recover all the cost of the land that you bought. Normally you cannot depreciate real property but when you buy property that has mineral resources (including oil and gas) you can recover the cost of the real property but I didn’t think you could take a million dollars in deductions for land you only paid a thousand dollars for. > [@](#): > > There are also plenty of other tax laws that are specific to the oil and gas industry that I’m not aware of details of. They likely get quite a lot of other kinds of credits and such. I don’t think their other credits are particularly good. The carried interest treatment that hedge fund managers enjoy was originally meant to benefit wildcatters. There are some domestic manufacturing tax credits that any domestic producer gets, including producers of oil and gas. There are some energy specific tax credits but the vast majority of them go to things like solar, nuclear and wind. ETA: Holy Shit!!! You’re right. percentage depletion can be MORE than cost recovery. That is a tax handout to oil and gas. They should stop it. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-trump-a-symptom-of/747614/114 "2016-03-02T20:56:03Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And people that make more than that are taxed at either 51% or 56% So what? That’s not where the bulk of the revenue is coming from. My point is that if you truly want to be like Scandinavia, you have to advocate for higher taxes across the board, because ‘soak the rich’ doesn’t get you there. But no one’s advocating that, are they? Sanders is closest in that he at least is willing to look at slightly higher taxes in exchange for free health care, but he’s essentially still promising to deliver Scandinavian-style social democracy by taxing the rich. That’s not the way it works in Scandinavia. > [@](#): > > It depends, what are they getting for that 31%? My guess: A lot less than what they’d get if they were allowed to keep it for themselves. Once you get into the business of taxing the middle class in order to give goodies to the middle class, you are essentially saying that the government can do a better job of deciding what people need and proving it for them than the people themselves can do. We’re no longer talking about wealth redistribution, but taking over control of a large part of everyone’s wealth. The assumption is that that the government is a more efficient allocator of resources to the general population than is the market. The history of socialism tell us this is absolute nonsense. Modern science, if anything, increases our understanding of why governments fail when they try to run things. Information theory, complexity theory, and modern public-choice economics all points to the conclusion that a society works best when power stays co-located with the information necessary to efficiently use that power - information that is utterly inaccessible to central planners. > [@](#): > > We are probably the least socialist large economy in the world. I don’t think there is a perfect place on the spectrum that we should maintain for all time, do you? And yet with one of the highest standards of living on the planet. And the country that leads in innovation. Do you think that’s a coincidence? And the areas in which the U.S. under-performs the most tend to be the areas of most government control - education, health care for seniors, veterans and the poor, etc. The cities in the worst trouble in the U.S. are the ones that have been run exclusively by Democrats for decades and which have the highest taxes and the biggest public sectors. Yes, I’m sure the answer is more government, higher taxes, and more decisions being made by the people farthest away from the problems they are trying to solve. Because historically, that always works. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-trump-a-symptom-of/747614/115 "2016-03-02T21:01:14Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > While we might debate the wisdom and feasibility of those policies, none is dismissible as “nutty.” Of course they are. You can’t drastically reduce carbon emissions while simultaneously shutting down nuclear power production without destroying the economy and standard of living. That’s about as nutty as it gets in this election. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-trump-a-symptom-of/747614/116 "2016-03-02T21:12:04Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > Except illegal immigration _hasn’t_ been soaring for almost a decade, so if “we” are reading that, we are not choosing our sources correctly. But those Moroccans or Libyans are streaming across the Rio Grande. Trump showed a video so it must be true! The Republican Party has been ranting about this for more than 8 years - even when one of their own was trying to do something sensible. When an outsider rants louder and more effectively, they can’t all of a sudden say look at the facts. Remember, when a Republican politician tried to say something reasonable Rush would yell at him. If we chose our sources correctly their support would dry up. It is pretty much similar to how the Chinese government is now telling financial journalists that their job is to support the Party line. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-trump-a-symptom-of/747614/117 "2016-03-02T22:16:49Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > The starting premise is that this is not rational - to have effectively a joke candidate be taken seriously by the electorate at all, never mind for this long. If you think it is rational then maybe start another thread. > > In a conventional, mature democracy the rise of people like Trump does not happen. So what has happened in the USA? CA elected Arnold. MN elected Jesse Ventura. Why Trump? The sentiment I perceive most is _‘Because fuck you that’s why’_. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-trump-a-symptom-of/747614/118 "2016-03-02T22:20:12Z")
> [@furryman](#): > > There seems to be a general opinion that Trump is a good businessman when he isn’t. I have no doubt at all that he can make the trains run on time. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-trump-a-symptom-of/747614/119 "2016-03-03T16:34:59Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > So what? That’s not where the bulk of the revenue is coming from. My point is that if you truly want to be like Scandinavia, you have to advocate for higher taxes across the board, because ‘soak the rich’ doesn’t get you there. That really depends on how income is distributed doesn’t it? The 51% rate kicks in at just over $60K. > [@](#): > > But no one’s advocating that, are they? Sanders is closest in that he at least is willing to look at slightly higher taxes in exchange for free health care, but he’s essentially still promising to deliver Scandinavian-style social democracy by taxing the rich. That’s not the way it works in Scandinavia. Scandinavia or Sweden? > [@](#): > > My guess: A lot less than what they’d get if they were allowed to keep it for themselves. Once you get into the business of taxing the middle class in order to give goodies to the middle class, you are essentially saying that the government can do a better job of deciding what people need and proving it for them than the people themselves can do. We’re no longer talking about wealth redistribution, but taking over control of a large part of everyone’s wealth. There are plenty of areas where this is obviously true. Even the most conservative of conservatives seem to think that we are better off pooling our resources to buy a military, judiciary, police and fire departments. Most of them think that public financing of schools are a good idea as well. The notion is that education (while not a public good) is something that we do not want to let the market allocate based primarily on ability to pay. Health care (IMNSHO) falls into the category of things we should not allocate primarily on ability to pay. We can quibble about how much health care we are talking about and who qualifies for the benefit but we already pay for most of the health care costs in the country. > [@](#): > > The assumption is that that the government is a more efficient allocator of resources to the general population than is the market. The history of socialism tell us this is absolute nonsense. Socialism just means that we tax everyone to give everyone a minimum standard of living. It doesn’t mean we throw capitalism and free markets out the door. There are plenty of examples of command economies where the government allocated resources to pretty good effect. Much of the growth in Asian economies like Japan and Korea have been the result of command economies where the government told industry what to do and often told them how to do it. I’m not proposing we adopt a command economy but the guy that developed the notion of comparative advantages sorta supported government control of their economies (primarily to specialize in things that they could export). China is another example of a relatively hands on approach to the allocation of resources by the government. > [@](#): > > Modern science, if anything, increases our understanding of why governments fail when they try to run things. Information theory, complexity theory, and modern public-choice economics all points to the conclusion that a society works best when power stays co-located with the information necessary to efficiently use that power - information that is utterly inaccessible to central planners. That’s a nice theory. Its wrong, but its a nice theory. The wisdom of the masses works just fine until it doesn’t (see Trump, see credit default swaps, see 2008 economic collapse, see Tulips)… kinda like central planning. > [@](#): > > And yet with one of the highest standards of living on the planet. And the country that leads in innovation. Do you think that’s a coincidence? We haven’t been the world leader in innovation in a while and much of that innovation came from brain-draining the rest of the world. > [@](#): > > And the areas in which the U.S. under-performs the most tend to be the areas of most government control - education, health care for seniors, veterans and the poor, etc. Can you point me to the list of countries that outperform America on education that DON’T have government run education? I’m looking at a list of top performing countries and I think they all have public schools. Can you point me to a country without government run health care for seniors that has BETTER health results for seniors than America? AFAICT, the other countries that have better health results for seniors tend to have MORE (not less) government involvement in the health care system. I am not familiar with our underperformance on veterans issues. can you elaborate? Can you point to the country that is successfully applying private sector solution to poverty? The fact is that the government steps into areas that the private sector can’t do AT ALL and consequently the government does a worse job of providing health care for seniors than apple does of providing iphones to teenagers. > [@](#): > > The cities in the worst trouble in the U.S. are the ones that have been run exclusively by Democrats for decades and which have the highest taxes and the biggest public sectors. I think a lot of that is due to Democratic machines and corruption. And to be fair, most cities have been run by Democrats for decades. If we are going to do a pro-rata comparison, I think we will find just as many problems with places where Republicans do not have much competition. IOW, its a corruption problem more than it is a Democrat problem. > [@](#): > > Yes, I’m sure the answer is more government, higher taxes, and more decisions being made by the people farthest away from the problems they are trying to solve. Because historically, that always works. Sometimes, yes, sometimes no. It depends. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-trump-a-symptom-of/747614/120 "2016-03-03T16:40:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > While we might debate the wisdom and feasibility of those policies, none is dismissible as “nutty.” There comes a point in the “lack of wisdom/feasibility” spectrum when you are in nutty territory. I will take the tax loopholes for oil companies off the list. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-trump-a-symptom-of/747614.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-trump-a-symptom-of/747614.md?page=7)