# What is up with cyclists? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 24, 2015, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442 "2015-09-24T23:56:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/81 "2015-09-28T03:19:55Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Show me a car that can use the 5 feet as an extra lane. > > And that price of real estate is for buildable land, not roadways. [NYC budget 2015 is 75 billion](http://nypost.com/2014/06/26/city-council-approves-75b-budget-for-2015-fiscal-year/). So you’re claiming that bike lanes cost NYC 12% of it’s budget every year? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/82 "2015-09-28T03:24:59Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > This analysis ignores the fact that bike lanes use up valuable real estate. NYC, for example, has [250 miles of bike lanes.](https://www.transalt.org/issues/bike/bikefaq) At an [average width of 5 feet](http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/ped_bike/univcourse/pdf/swless19.pdf), and an[average price/square foot of $1416](http://www.trulia.com/real_estate/New_York-New_York/market-trends/), self-righteous cyclists cost NYC about 9 billion dollars. That’s an enormous amount of money to waste on a bunch of uppity hippies. From your first link. > [@](#): > > Eighty percent of the total cost of the 250 miles of bike lanes installed since 2006 was paid for by the federal government, through a matching grant that can only be used to build and maintain bike lanes. **The cost to the city to make bicycling a real option for all New Yorkers through safe street designs has therefore been only $1.6 million,** virtual drops in the bucket as compared other transportation infrastructure investments. ---
**Author:** ![Construct](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Construct](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Construct)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/83 "2015-09-28T03:31:28Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Show me a car that can use the 5 feet as an extra lane. > > And that price of real estate is for buildable land, not roadways. Well, the roads were originally designed for exclusively car (and horse, I guess) use. Usually, when they put in a bike lane, they’ll also expand the frontage or sidewalks. So the true land cost of bike lanes is greater than the lane itself. In other words, the cost is an underestimate. No, it’s the value of the land. So it’s a one-time cost. Finally, that analysis intentionally underestimates the true cost of bike lanes by only including the cost of redoing the roads. The true cost, which incorporates the opportunity cost, is what the city could get from the next best use of the land, e.g selling it off to the private sector who would presumably use it to build larger buildings. Bike lanes cost an enormous amount of money. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/84 "2015-09-28T03:40:47Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > Well, the roads were originally designed for exclusively car (and horse, I guess) use. Usually, when they put in a bike lane, they’ll also expand the frontage or sidewalks. So the true land cost of bike lanes is greater than the lane itself. In other words, the cost is an underestimate. > > No, it’s the value of the land. So it’s a one-time cost. > > Finally, that analysis intentionally underestimates the true cost of bike lanes by only including the cost of redoing the roads. **The true cost, which incorporates the opportunity cost, is what the city could get from the next best use of the land, e.g selling it off to the private sector who would presumably use it to build larger buildings.** Bike lanes cost an enormous amount of money. Right in the middle of the road? So provide a cite of the true cost. ---
**Author:** ![Construct](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Construct](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Construct)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/85 "2015-09-28T03:58:46Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Right in the middle of the road? > > So provide a cite of the true cost. I’ve never seen a bike lane that wasn’t on the side of the road. I calculated the opportunity cost from three different sources. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/86 "2015-09-28T04:01:35Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > I’ve never seen a bike lane that wasn’t on the side of the road. I calculated the opportunity cost from three different sources. That’s a fucking stupid way of doing it. No city is going to sell 250 miles of their streets to private developers. Why don’t you believe the very cite you provided? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/87 "2015-09-28T04:41:45Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > That’s a fucking stupid way of doing it. No city is going to sell 250 miles of their streets to private developers. Can you imagine trying to sell a 5’ wide strip running down a block, right next to flowing street traffic and probably in front of someone else’s residence or place of business? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Construct](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Construct](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Construct)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/88 "2015-09-28T04:56:38Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > That’s a fucking stupid way of doing it. No city is going to sell 250 miles of their streets to private developers. > > Why don’t you believe the very cite you provided? The city could sell the land to developers when they rebuild buildings, or to street vendors, or any other group of people. It’s NYC, everything is for sale. Because there’s no way I’m going to believe that 150 acres of land in New York City costs 1.5 million. As I said, they didn’t calculate opportunity cost. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/89 "2015-09-28T04:58:47Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Can you imagine trying to sell a 5’ wide strip running down a block, right next to flowing street traffic and probably in front of someone else’s residence or place of business? :rolleyes: [I can believe it](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spite_house), maybe with just a few more feet (or very thin walls). Also it’s NYC real estate; someone will buy it. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/90 "2015-09-28T11:44:19Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > The city could sell the land to developers when they rebuild buildings, or to street vendors, or any other group of people. It’s NYC, everything is for sale. Nobody is going to want rows of street vendors where the bike lanes are. At a minimum you will piss off the street residents, block access to parking lanes and endanger the lives of the people who are occupying them because they are right next to street traffic. > [@](#): > > Because there’s no way I’m going to believe that 150 acres of land in New York City costs 1.5 million. As I said, they didn’t calculate opportunity cost. Because they don’t calculate magic figures you invent. This is a very stupid and impractical idea and doesn’t even pass the sniff test. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/91 "2015-09-28T15:28:40Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > and an[average price/square foot of $1416](http://www.trulia.com/real_estate/New_York-New_York/market-trends/), I’m pretty sure the figures for developed home sales aren’t really comparable sales numbser vs. ultra-thin strips of asphlat directly over utiltity lines. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/92 "2015-09-28T15:43:33Z")
The OP’s problem is not with cyclists, but with **C** yclists. The "capital letter’ faction of any group is the irritating, loud part. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/93 "2015-09-28T16:07:25Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Try having someone in a car place his bumper a foot from your rear bike wheel while blasting his horn because he’s offended that you won’t let him race to the red light 50 yards ahead and your little quips and squirming won’t seem so funny. Hell, try having someone in a car place his bumper _on_ your bike as you legally cross his path at a light. Freaked me the hell out! ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/94 "2015-09-28T16:27:31Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > Hell, try having someone in a car place his bumper _on_ your bike as you legally cross his path at a light. Freaked me the hell out! :eek::eek::eek: And Freaking out was the extent of the damage?!! ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/95 "2015-09-28T18:52:11Z")
Fortunately, I was going fast enough that the jerk in the gray GM wagon didn’t do more than make me slightly off balance. Recovered quickly, rode up onto the sidewalk, stopped, and was like “what the fuck was that?!” A few days later, I heard a news report about some old guy in a gray GM wagon being a suspect in a hit-and-run that put two bicycling girls in a hospital. Always wondered if it was the same driver. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/96 "2015-09-28T20:52:31Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > Fortunately, I was going fast enough that the jerk in the gray GM wagon didn’t do more than make me slightly off balance. Recovered quickly, rode up onto the sidewalk, stopped, and was like “what the fuck was that?!” > > A few days later, I heard a news report about some old guy in a gray GM wagon being a suspect in a hit-and-run that put two bicycling girls in a hospital. Always wondered if it was the same driver. May well have been. Or possibly a completely different jerk. There is no shortage of them. The point that I was making earlier is that there are jerks on both sides of this debate. I’m not claiming equivalence in terms of personal hazard, only the equivalent need for both cyclists and motorists to obey the rules of the road and the rules of common sense. Because one side can’t do it alone. And I reject the implications made earlier that drivers are somehow all jerks but cyclists are saintly beings that only occasionally do something stupid. No, as the OP and many followup posts attest, **cyclists do stupid things all the freaking time**. Not, not **you** , dear reader and avid cyclist – I know **you’re** perfect. It’s all the other cyclists I’m talking about. :rolleyes: And I immediately dismiss any argument that begins by regaling us with comparisons between the mass of a bicycle and the mass of a car, because I know where it’s going. It’s where it always goes – that, by virtue of his vulnerability, the cyclist must be allowed to do _ **whatever the hell he wants** _. In the world-view of some cyclists, the first and primary job of the motorist is to stay out of his way and let the cyclist do whatever the hell he wants, whether it’s rushing through a red light or a stop sign or weaving down the middle of an unlit country road at night without lights while wearing a matte black Invisibility Cloak. Preferably, the motorist should just stay home. The motorist’s job, basically, is to pay for the roads and then stay the hell off them. And if the motorist fails in this prime mission, then he must face the fearsome Righteous Wrath of the Cyclist. The vulnerability argument is pure bullshit, because the point of having rules of the road is to avoid accidents, period. _ **No one** _ wants to be part of a personal-injury accident, and avoiding them is a shared responsibility. There are “rules of the road” everywhere, and they are based on common sense and shared responsibility. A power boat on open water must give way to a sailboat, but it’s not because a sailboat is more vulnerable or more holy and righteous, it’s because a sailboat is **less manoeuverable**. The rules of the road and the reasons for them and the concept of safe cycling and shared responsibility need to pounded into some cyclists’ heads and maybe, in the process, some of the self-righteousness can be pounded out and replaced by common sense. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/97 "2015-09-29T00:02:35Z")
Portland is another bike-Nazi city. They have a lobbying group and are real bullies about things. And the city usually knuckles under to their demands when they show up in their baggy-assed spandex and precious little shoes. I applaud the exercise factor, but not the arrogance of some who ride. We live near a 40 mile long paved trail that is for bikers and walkers, but if you walk you take your life in your hands. Bikers love to see how close they can come to hitting you, and since they’re coming from behind, you don’t see them until they go by just inches from you. We don’t walk on the path any more, which I’m sure is the aim of such people. Yesterday was one of the periodic bike and pedestrian walkabouts in the city. The city goes to great lengths to block of streets and redirect car traffic, providing people to assist participants and water stations along the way. It’s a nice thing to do. We went on about a five mile portion of yesterday’s event, and can say that many bikers have zero consideration for pedestrians. We were nearly hit on several occasions, and got dirty looks from many more for being in the way. . .for _walking_. ---
**Author:** ![Plumpudding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Plumpudding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plumpudding)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/98 "2015-09-29T00:14:29Z")
Once a guy tried to \*park \*on me when I was standing by the side in a small dead-end close to a shop. He then ran out yelling at me for “damaging” his car. But some bikers are real jackasses too, together with some pedestrians. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/99 "2015-09-29T01:25:07Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > And I reject the implications made earlier that drivers are somehow all jerks but cyclists are saintly beings that only occasionally do something stupid. No, as the OP and many followup posts attest, **cyclists do stupid things all the freaking time**. Not, not **you** , dear reader and avid cyclist – I know **you’re** perfect. It’s all the other cyclists I’m talking about. :rolleyes: Cyclists do not do stupid things all the time, they just get noticed more when they and whined at well out of proportion to the act. Meanwhile, how many drivers take risks that endanger other on the road? How many speed? How many use cells phones? The answer is a freaking lot but it gets neatly swept under the carpet. > [@](#): > > And I immediately dismiss any argument that begins by regaling us with comparisons between the mass of a bicycle and the mass of a car, because I know where it’s going. It’s where it always goes – that, by virtue of his vulnerability, the cyclist must be allowed to do _ **whatever the hell he wants** _. Nice strawman you’ve built there. Wanna try actually addressing the real issues next time? > [@](#): > > In the world-view of some cyclists, the first and primary job of the motorist is to stay out of his way and let the cyclist do whatever the hell he wants, whether it’s rushing through a red light or a stop sign or weaving down the middle of an unlit country road at night without lights while wearing a matte black Invisibility Cloak. And in the world of far too many drivers bicyclists should get the hell of _their_ roads and are arrogant for merely using them. > [@](#): > > Preferably, the motorist should just stay home. The motorist’s job, basically, is to pay for the roads and then stay the hell off them. Again, drivers do not pay for the roads. Proportionally the cyclist probably pays more for them given the wear and tear a bicycle puts on them, as well as paying for roads they are not permitted to use with their bicycles. > [@](#): > > And if the motorist fails in this prime mission, then he must face the fearsome Righteous Wrath of the Cyclist. Oh, how dare the arrogant cyclists speak up when cut off by impatient passing cars, or complain when the car passenger throws things at them, or tailgate them, or left-or-right-hook them, etc. How DARE they! > [@](#): > > The vulnerability argument is pure bullshit, because the point of having rules of the road is to avoid accidents, period. _ **No one** _ wants to be part of a personal-injury accident, and avoiding them is a shared responsibility. I have seen far too many driver’s antics to even remotely believe that this attitude is universal. Far, far too many drivers stretch the law to what think they can get away with, not with what is actually safe. > [@](#): > > There are “rules of the road” everywhere, and they are based on common sense and shared responsibility. A power boat on open water must give way to a sailboat, but it’s not because a sailboat is more vulnerable or more holy and righteous, it’s because a sailboat is **less manoeuverable**. The rules of the road and the reasons for them and the concept of safe cycling and shared responsibility need to pounded into some cyclists’ heads and maybe, in the process, some of the self-righteousness can be pounded out and replaced by common sense. I’ve shown in this very thread how studies show the greater percentage of car/cyclists accidents are the fault of drivers. You have ignored those and instead continued to blame cyclists for vast, vast majority of issues and hand-waved away any evidence or examples of horrid driver behavior. Projection at its very finest. ---
**Author:** ![Construct](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Construct](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Construct)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/100 "2015-09-29T01:56:20Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > And in the world of far too many drivers bicyclists should get the hell of _their_ roads and are arrogant for merely using them. They are, in fact, literally our roads, since we exclusively pay the costs for upkeep, even on your luxurious bike lanes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442.md?page=6)