# What is up with cyclists? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 24, 2015, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442 "2015-09-24T23:56:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/101 "2015-09-29T01:58:10Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > They are, in fact, literally our roads, since we exclusively pay the costs for upkeep, even on your luxurious bike lanes. You think cyclists don’t pay property tax, sales tax, income tax? Even gas tax. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/102 "2015-09-29T01:58:30Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > They are, in fact, literally our roads, since we exclusively pay the costs for upkeep, even on your luxurious bike lanes. The cyclists pay for their upkeep as well, please stop spreading this ignorant claim on the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/103 "2015-09-29T02:01:22Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > You think cyclists don’t pay property tax, sales tax, income tax? Even gas tax. I see that [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=764716&highlight=Construct) exists. Explains much. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/104 "2015-09-29T09:10:54Z")
> [@Lo-Slung\_Denim](#): > > I don’t have much time for the idiot Mayor of London,… It prevents the cyclists from doing dumb stuff like running red lights I wasn’t going to enter this one, because I’m not familiar with the OP area and cyclists, but then you mention London. In London they do traffic surveys, and keep accident statistics. So we know that, in London, bicycles running the red lights make traffic flow better, and reduce bicycle accident rates, by clearing out of the intersections when the traffic is clear and stationary. London has a fair number of cyclists, and a fair number of cycle accidents, and a fair number of traffic analysts, so the numbers are known. Dunno about the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/105 "2015-09-29T17:12:14Z")
Stop confusing them with facts. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/106 "2015-09-29T19:17:58Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Stop confusing them with facts. Sorry, I keep forgetting some folks have allergies to them. ---
**Author:** ![Mart44](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mart44](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mart44)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/107 "2015-09-29T20:21:49Z")
There’s a popular misconception in UK that cyclist don’t pay ‘road tax’ and therefore don’t have as much right to be on the roads as motorists. The truth of the matter is that the roads are paid for by everyone, including cyclists, out of general taxation. Cyclists therefore do have as much right to be on the road as anyone. > **[Cyclists and “road tax”: the truth](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cyclists-and-road-tax-the-truth-scggqlkt077)** > > No, according to advisers at HM Revenue & Customs and the Treasury. Firstly, “road tax” does not exist, and has not existed since the 1930s. What drivers do pay, however, is Vehicle Excise Duty Cyclists pay for the repairs and upkeep of roads even though a bicycle doesn’t damage road surfaces at all. It’s the constant pounding by motor vehicles that does it. Regarding ‘road tax’ It looks like things might change to the detriment of the cyclist: > **['Road tax' rears its ugly head again for England's cyclists | Peter Walker](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2015/jul/09/road-tax-rears-its-ugly-head-again-for-englands-cyclists)** > > Peter Walker: By resurrecting a form of ‘road tax’ in budget changes to vehicle excise duty, George Osborne has made cycling in England that tiny bit more dangerous I drive a car or use public transport when distances are great but ride a bike or walk where they aren’t. I think this keeps at least one car off the congested roads. That’s maybe something else to consider. Think of the increased number of motor vehicles there would be on the roads if every adult cyclist were to get fed up with cycling and get back into their cars. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/108 "2015-09-29T22:20:58Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > I wasn’t going to enter this one, because I’m not familiar with the OP area and cyclists, but then you mention London. > > In London they do traffic surveys, and keep accident statistics. So we know that, in London, bicycles running the red lights make traffic flow better, and reduce bicycle accident rates, by clearing out of the intersections when the traffic is clear and stationary. > > London has a fair number of cyclists, and a fair number of cycle accidents, and a fair number of traffic analysts, so the numbers are known. Dunno about the OP. The trouble is, traffic isn’t “clear and stationary” on the cross street where drivers and pedestrians alike correctly assume they have the right of way. This is, at best, a highly controversial safety issue and not the matter of determined fact that you make it out to be, as if it was agreed to by everyone. For example: The [London Road Network Performance and Research Team Traffic Note 8](https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/traffic-note-8-cycling-red-lights.pdf) [PDF] states that the media has been making these kinds of claims based on an unpublished TFL (Transport for London) report supposedly claiming that women are more likely to obey red lights, and are therefore causally more likely to get into accidents. The report concludes **that such claims are bullshit** , and states that while “… the majority of cyclists do not ride through red lights … the 16% that do **must be discouraged from ignoring traffic signals**.” And [this site](http://www.cyclelaw.co.uk/cycling-offences-jumping-red-lights) quotes a UK Department of Transport study which states that red light jumping **is just as dangerous whether the perpetrator is a cyclist or a motorist**. It also quotes a nine-year veteran London bike patrol officer stating that bicycle-pedestrian accident statistics are significantly under-reported because there’s no legal obligation to report them. So when Dr Rachel Aldred, senior transport lecturer at the University of Westminster, says that in London something like 4 per cent of pedestrian casualties related to red light jumping involve cyclists jumping red lights, the real number is likely much higher. The above link mentions that cyclists quite properly are assessed the same fines as motorists for running red lights, but the consequences can be a lot more serious than a fine. Case in point (same source): However, there can be more serious consequences as was seen in December 2013 when a cyclist was jailed for twelve months after jumping a red light, **knocking down a nine year old girl and leaving the scene**. The cyclist collided with the girl at what eyewitnesses estimated to be 30mph after he failed to stop at the red light and she stepped out onto the pedestrian crossing. The judge told the cyclist that he was the only one to blame for the “ **incredibly selfish criminal act** ” after the cyclist admitted to a charge of causing grievous bodily harm. As I replay this incident in my mind, I’m sure I’m not the only one who imagines the righteous cyclist swearing at the little girl for getting in his way. And [according to this](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2541739/More-11-000-cyclists-caught-running-red-lights-riding-pavements-just-one-year.html), 11,000 of these reckless idiots were fined last year in London alone for a variety of traffic violations, 4,000 for jumping red lights and ignoring road signs, and 7,000 for cycling on sidewalks. Apparently motorists must beware the vulnerable and righteous cyclist on the road, but when the cyclist is _ **illegally** _ on the sidewalk, or _ **illegally** _ running a red light, pedestrians can go to hell. This is exactly the attitude I’m talking about. The article adds, correctly, in my view: The evidence of reckless and illegal cycling is in sharp contrast to the loud calls of cycling campaign groups who demand crackdowns on motorists and the creation of safer road junctions. And it adds concerns among motorist that too many cyclists believe the laws of the land should be rigorously enforced against drivers – but should not apply to them. A hard-core of the most militant cyclists, criticised for their confrontational attitudes including verbal abuse and hitting or kicking cars, have been dubbed ‘lycra-louts’ because of their tendency to be clad in the stretchy sports material. Just one last general comment. It’s interesting that I came into this discussion with nothing more than a somewhat tongue-in-cheek endorsement of another poster’s suggestion that cyclists tend to be surrounded by a sort of aura of righteousness, but some of the angry vitriol that is being spewed here by bicycle defenders is just reinforcing that perception. They’re not doing their cause any favors. I think it’s leaving some of us more convinced than ever that a lot of cyclists tend to be sanctimoniously self-righteous, careless of traffic laws, careless of the safety of pedestrians, and quick to blame everybody but themselves whenever anything happens to them. But again, of course I don’t mean you, dear reader and avid cyclist, as we know you’re perfect – it’s all the other cyclists I’m talking about. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/109 "2015-09-30T13:05:51Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > There was an [incident in Toronto on Thursday](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/cyclist-car-keys-throws-drain-1.3244683) involving a minor collision between a car and a bicycle in which no one was injured. The only reason it made the news is that the paragon of virtue emerged from the shield of self-righteousness long enough to reach in through the driver’s window, remove the keys, and throw them down the sewer drain. Then he cycled on. I have a friend in Toronto who’s a bike messenger. Had to check to see if it was him. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/110 "2015-09-30T22:28:19Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > T > Just one last general comment. It’s interesting that I came into this discussion with nothing more than a somewhat tongue-in-cheek endorsement of another poster’s suggestion that cyclists tend to be surrounded by a sort of aura of righteousness, but some of the angry vitriol that is being spewed here by bicycle defenders is just reinforcing that perception. Awww, are you sad that you weren’t allowed to pick on cyclists with impunity? Boo-freaking-hoo. Someone called you on your crap when you used an example of a driver endangering the life of a cyclist as an example of rampant bad cyclist behavior. You’ve been nitpicking and using anecdotes to bolster your argument ever since. > [@](#): > > They’re not doing their cause any favors. I think it’s leaving some of us more convinced than ever that a lot of cyclists tend to be sanctimoniously self-righteous, careless of traffic laws, careless of the safety of pedestrians, and quick to blame everybody but themselves whenever anything happens to them. I’m wasn’t really expecting to convince the anti-bike bigots, just show where their arguments are nothing more than myths and prejudices. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/111 "2015-10-01T03:47:21Z")
> [@Soul\_Brother\_Number\_Two](#): > > My name is Soul Brother Number Two, I am a daily bicycle commuter, and I run red lights on my bicycle. I have received three tickets for doing so. My last one, about 5 years ago, cost me 571 dollars. Each time I swear to myself I will stop doing it. I don’t stop doing it. I cannot bear, for some reason, to fucking stop at the light and put my foot down, and I won’t do it unless forced to by traffic flow. I realize that I am a scofflaw and a horrible person for doing this thing. As God is my witness, I can’t seem to stop. Hee. This sounds like a 12-step meeting. > [@Soul\_Brother\_Number\_Two](#): > > My name is Soul Brother Number Two, I am a daily bicycle commuter, and I run red lights on my bicycle. HI, SOUL BROTHER NUMBER TWO! ---
**Author:** ![Indus.1999](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a4c791/32.png) [@Indus.1999](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indus.1999)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442/112 "2016-01-08T09:05:51Z")
As a cyclist sometimes when i’m stopped at the red light if there is no traffic I would instinctively run the lights almost by impulse or accident WITTS is that most cyclists don’t even know what they’re doing. Cycling just happens. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-up-with-cyclists/732442.md?page=5)