# What is/was the True Cross? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 9, 2003, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-was-the-true-cross/167450 "2003-04-09T00:41:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-was-the-true-cross/167450/1 "2003-04-09T00:41:07Z")
Having engaged in the debate on the Holy Grail on other boards, I note that the True Cross was mentioned several times. I’ve heard of the True Cross several times (on and off the board), but I’ve never found out what it was. Does anyone know? ---
**Author:** ![Winsling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Winsling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Winsling)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-was-the-true-cross/167450/2 "2003-04-09T00:43:43Z")
It is/was the cross that Christ was crucified on. In the Middle Ages, it or fragments of it, were reputed to have magical properties. ---
**Author:** ![bobk2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@bobk2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobk2)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-was-the-true-cross/167450/3 "2003-04-09T01:35:50Z")
I believe Mark Twain commented, perhaps in The Innocents Abroad, that in Europe in various churches he had seen enough fragments of the True Cross to construct several houses out of, or something like that. Anybody got the actual quote/cite? ---
**Author:** ![slipster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@slipster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slipster)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-was-the-true-cross/167450/4 "2003-04-09T05:18:31Z")
It is well known that Mark Twain said everything. It’s just a fact. Thus: “Let there be light…”–Mark Twain. “Who put the bop in the bop, she-bop, she-bop?”–Mark Twain. “All your base are belong to us.”–Mark Twain. Then again, maybe Twain really did say that about The True Cross. I have seen it credited to him many times. I have also seen it credited to Voltaire, another person who, like Yogi Berra, never said most of the things he said. In any case, in **The Sketch Book of Geoffrey Crayon** , Washington Irving wrote that if all of the splinters said to be taken from The True Cross were put together, one would have enough lumber to construct “a ship of the line”–that is, an ocean liner. I recall reading once that this had been refuted, and that calculations made after taking a survey of the various churches and shrines which claim to have a splinter show that one would, in fact, have rather an ordinary-sized piece of timber if they were combined. After the Emperor Constantine officially sanctioned Christianity, there were numerous expeditions undertaken to Jerusalem and its environs by scholars who wished to identify sites mentioned in The New Testament, and, better yet, find actual relics. These first digs occured in the early and mid fourth century. It was assumed that the early Christians would have wanted to preserve objects mentioned in the Gospels for posterity, although the general impression of historians is that these Christians thought that the end of the world was eminent. These expeditions cmet with varying degrees of success. For instance, there seems to be general agreement that the hill which is pointed out to tourists as Golgotha is the correct place. On the other hand, there are two different spots which are pointed out to tourists as the authentic Garden of Gethsemane. “Chinese” Gordon insisted that he found Christ’s tomb. IIRC, there were already two of them found. There are stories which tell of how early archeologists had miraculous experiences which supposedly authenticated some of their finds. I dimly recall seeing a painting in an art history class once of an apparition of one of the Evangelists (perhaps it was St. Mark), appearing before a group of excavators in a catacomb to show them where to find his tomb. While these stories may seem silly now, arguably we have not gotten over that sort of mindset entirely; consider the recent excitement over the ossuary of Jesus’ brother, which must be authentic since it says it belongs to Jesus’ brother right on it. Or, for that matter, the outrage prices people are willing to spend for a baseball which struck for a historic home run. As for the piece of wood venerated as The True Cross, it is generally accepted that it (or, in any case, the piece of wood which is thought to be it) was found by an expedition sponsored by St. Helena, Constantine’s mother. There are two stories I’ve heard in this regard. When I was in grade school back in the 1960s, one of my parish priests (who, incidentally, was a great one for quoting things Mark Twain never said, often citing books I suspect he had only heard about), told my class that St. Helena was told where to look in a dream. Supposedly she dreamt that a well-dressed stranger of polished demeanor gave her detailed instructions about digging up an old dump. When her workmen did, they found an underground chamber, but no cross. Then one of them accidentally struck the side of the chamber with his shovel and realized that there was another hollow chamber on the other side. In this was found The True Cross, carefully preserved. There were also said to be two other pieces of wood, assumed to be those on which the thieves mentioned in the Gospels were hung. Another story which I found on the Web says that St. Helena was told that an old Jewish man claimed to know where the cross was buried, and she had him tortured until he told her men where to dig. Incidentally, it is my impression that St. Helena was not said to have found an actual cross as such, but rather a single long piece of timber such as a man’s arms might have been nailed to. It is thought by historians that this is what Jesus would have actually been given to carry to Golgotha. The depiction in Fraco Zefferelli’s **Jesus of Nazareth** in which Christ is nailed to a cross-piece and it is then hoisted up to be mounted to a framework is thought to be historically accurate. ---
**Author:** ![slipster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@slipster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slipster)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-was-the-true-cross/167450/5 "2003-04-09T05:19:01Z")
It is well known that Mark Twain said everything. It’s just a fact. Thus: “Let there be light…”–Mark Twain. “Who put the bop in the bop, she-bop, she-bop?”–Mark Twain. “All your base are belong to us.”–Mark Twain. Then again, maybe Twain really did say that about The True Cross. I have seen it credited to him many times. I have also seen it credited to Voltaire, another person who, like Yogi Berra, never said most of the things he said. In any case, in **The Sketch Book of Geoffrey Crayon** , Washington Irving wrote that if all of the splinters said to be taken from The True Cross were put together, one would have enough lumber to construct “a ship of the line”–that is, an ocean liner. I recall reading once that this had been refuted, and that calculations made after taking a survey of the various churches and shrines which claim to have a splinter show that one would, in fact, have rather an ordinary-sized piece of timber if they were combined. After the Emperor Constantine officially sanctioned Christianity, there were numerous expeditions undertaken to Jerusalem and its environs by scholars who wished to identify sites mentioned in The New Testament, and, better yet, find actual relics. These first digs occured in the early and mid fourth century. It was assumed that the early Christians would have wanted to preserve objects mentioned in the Gospels for posterity, although the general impression of historians is that these Christians thought that the end of the world was eminent. These expeditions cmet with varying degrees of success. For instance, there seems to be general agreement that the hill which is pointed out to tourists as Golgotha is the correct place. On the other hand, there are two different spots which are pointed out to tourists as the authentic Garden of Gethsemane. “Chinese” Gordon insisted that he found Christ’s tomb. IIRC, there were already two of them found. There are stories which tell of how early archeologists had miraculous experiences which supposedly authenticated some of their finds. I dimly recall seeing a painting in an art history class once of an apparition of one of the Evangelists (perhaps it was St. Mark), appearing before a group of excavators in a catacomb to show them where to find his tomb. While these stories may seem silly now, arguably we have not gotten over that sort of mindset entirely; consider the recent excitement over the ossuary of Jesus’ brother, which must be authentic since it says it belongs to Jesus’ brother right on it. Or, for that matter, the outrage prices people are willing to spend for a baseball which struck for a historic home run. As for the piece of wood venerated as The True Cross, it is generally accepted that it (or, in any case, the piece of wood which is thought to be it) was found by an expedition sponsored by St. Helena, Constantine’s mother. There are two stories I’ve heard in this regard. When I was in grade school back in the 1960s, one of my parish priests (who, incidentally, was a great one for quoting things Mark Twain never said, often citing books I suspect he had only heard about), told my class that St. Helena was told where to look in a dream. Supposedly she dreamt that a well-dressed stranger of polished demeanor gave her detailed instructions about digging up an old dump. When her workmen did, they found an underground chamber, but no cross. Then one of them accidentally struck the side of the chamber with his shovel and realized that there was another hollow chamber on the other side. In this was found The True Cross, carefully preserved. There were also said to be two other pieces of wood, assumed to be those on which the thieves mentioned in the Gospels were hung. Another story which I found on the Web says that St. Helena was told that an old Jewish man claimed to know where the cross was buried, and she had him tortured until he told her men where to dig. Incidentally, it is my impression that St. Helena was not said to have found an actual cross as such, but rather a single long piece of timber such as a man’s arms might have been nailed to. It is thought by historians that this is what Jesus would have actually been given to carry to Golgotha. The depiction in Franco Zefferelli’s **Jesus of Nazareth** in which Christ is nailed to a cross-piece and it is then hoisted up to be mounted to a framework is thought to be historically accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-was-the-true-cross/167450/6 "2003-04-09T06:43:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bobk2 \* > \*\*I believe Mark Twain commented, perhaps in The Innocents Abroad, that in Europe in various churches he had seen enough fragments of the True Cross to construct several houses out of, or something like that. > > Anybody got the actual quote/cite? \*\* Couldn’t find it, but I did come across [this page](http://www.ichrusa.com/saintsalive/cross.htm), which claims that a Frenchman named Rohault de Fleury catalogued all known relics of the True Cross and concluded that the fragments would have, if assembled, made up less than one-third of Jesus’s Rood. [Here’s](http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/crossvat.htm) an article about the Vatican’s alleged possession of a piece of the placard, known as the Titulus, that declared Jesus the “King of the Jews” (INRI). The [Catholic Encyclopedia](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04529a.htm) features this entry. Less sympathetic to the Church is [this account](http://www.thecross-photo.com/The_True_Cross_by_Ron_Loeffler.htm), which enumerates the four to six splinters on USA soil. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-was-the-true-cross/167450/7 "2003-04-09T09:38:33Z")
Christ King Church in Wauwatosa, Wisconsin, USA has a splinter of the “True Cross” in a monstrum. ---
**Author:** ![raygirvan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac91a4/32.png) [@raygirvan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raygirvan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-was-the-true-cross/167450/8 "2003-04-09T19:24:47Z")
Here’s a nice page mentioning the issue of [multiplicity of relics](http://www.angelfire.com/ky/dodone/Relics.html). The splinters may amount in volume to a reasonable True Cross, but it’s harder to explain the 150 nails needed to fix it together, or the saint with 28 fingers and toes. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-was-the-true-cross/167450/9 "2003-04-09T23:03:28Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by slipster_ > **In any case, in The Sketch Book of Geoffrey Crayon, Washington Irving wrote that if all of the splinters said to be taken from The True Cross were put together, one would have enough lumber to construct “a ship of the line”–that is, an ocean liner.** Can’t let this slip by. While there’s some argument about exactly what ships might be termed a ship of the line, (see: [http://home.att.net/~ShipModelFAQ/OtherStuff/smf-RN-Galleon.html](http://home.att.net/~ShipModelFAQ/OtherStuff/smf-RN-Galleon.html)) a ship of the line is a battleship. Washington Irving would have had no idea what an “ocean liner” was. Still, the quote is a good find. ---
**Author:** ![Never\_to\_be\_Queen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Never\_to\_be\_Queen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Never_to_be_Queen)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-was-the-true-cross/167450/10 "2003-04-10T00:36:42Z")
Is it called the “True Cross” to set it apart from fake relics, as in, “I have part of the True Cross and you just have an imitation;” or is “true” here used as a religious adjective like the word “holy” in Holy Grail? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-was-the-true-cross/167450/11 "2003-04-10T03:44:33Z")
The former, _Never_. There was much trade in fake relics in the medieval era. ---
**Author:** ![gallows\_fodder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8c91f0/32.png) [@gallows\_fodder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gallows_fodder)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-was-the-true-cross/167450/12 "2003-04-10T14:20:34Z")
Just for the sake of completion, in addition to the American locations of 4-6 splinters found in **Sternvogel** ’s last link, the National Shrine in Washington, DC and the basilica on the campus of the University of Notre Dame in Indiana both claim to possess fragments of the True Cross. They’re periodically shown to the public, if you’re interested – I myself have seen these relics exposed after Eucharistic Adoration at both sites. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-was-the-true-cross/167450/13 "2003-04-10T14:49:15Z")
The cross on which Jesus Christ was crucified, founding one the the world’s most successful religions, which was one of the most influential things on the last 2000 years of history. In other news the Roman Empire fell, and Neil Armstrong landed on the moon. Sorry, I couldn’t resist the joke. You didn’t sound stupid or anything, I just like being sarcastic. OK, serious contribution… Anyone know if any of these have been scientifically dated? For that matter, did crucifiction normally use crosses as typically depicted, or trees with crosspieces, or what? Would this make a difference? ---
**Author:** ![chukhung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e79b87/32.png) [@chukhung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chukhung)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-was-the-true-cross/167450/14 "2003-04-10T14:53:04Z")
The text to Mark Twain’s _Innocents Abroad_ is available here, [http://ibiblio.org/gutenberg/etext02/mtinn11.txt](http://ibiblio.org/gutenberg/etext02/mtinn11.txt). One of the many charms of this narrative is Twain’s obvious delight each time he stumbles upon yet another chunk of the True Cross in his travels. Some examples > [@](#): > > But isn’t this relic matter a little overdone? We find a piece of the true cross in every old church we go into, and some of the nails that held it together. I would not like to be positive, but I think we have seen as much as a keg of these nails. Then there is the crown of thorns; they have part of one in Sainte Chapelle, in Paris, and part of one also in Notre Dame. And as for bones of St. Denis, I feel certain we have seen enough of them to duplicate him if necessary. > [@](#): > > They have twelve small pillars, in St. Peter’s, which came from Solomon’s Temple. They have, also–which was far more interesting to me–a piece of the true cross, and some nails, and a part of the crown of thorns. > [@](#): > > From the cistern we descended twelve steps into a large roughly-shaped grotto, carved wholly out of the living rock. Helena blasted it out when she was searching for the true Cross. She had a laborious piece of work, here, but it was richly rewarded. Out of this place she got the crown of thorns, the nails of the cross, the true Cross itself, and the cross of the penitent thief. When she thought she had found every thing and was about to stop, she was told in a dream to continue a day longer. It was very fortunate. She did so, and found the cross of the other thief. > > The walls and roof of this grotto still weep bitter tears in memory of the event that transpired on Calvary, and devout pilgrims groan and sob when these sad tears fall upon them from the dripping rock. The monks call this apartment the “Chapel of the Invention of the Cross”–a name which is unfortunate, because it leads the ignorant to imagine that a tacit acknowledgment is thus made that the tradition that Helena found the true Cross here is a fiction–an invention. It is a happiness to know, however, that intelligent people do not doubt the story in any of its particulars.