# What is with “100% no death penalty under any circumstances” type people??? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 29, 2004, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045 "2004-08-29T03:30:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/221 "2004-09-03T07:02:31Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Thirdly, it usually serves as a comfort to the families and loved ones of the murder victim. Some people here say this shouldn’t be a factor. I disagree. The murderer inflicted horrible lifelong suffering upon them, why shouldn’t he be made to alleviate it at least somewhat by the forfeiture of his own life? Because killing one person just to make another person feel better is savage and disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/222 "2004-09-03T07:19:22Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > Because killing one person just to make another person feel better is savage and disgusting. False premise, speaks to sentiment I did not express. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/223 "2004-09-03T07:25:24Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > False premise, speaks to sentiment I did not express. You’re kidding, right? You wrote “why shouldn’t he [the criminal] be made to **alleviate it** [a victim’s loved one’s suffering] at least somewhat **by the forfeiture of his own life**?” That is killing one person to make another feel better. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/224 "2004-09-03T07:31:43Z")
> [@](#): > > The purpose of capital punishment is to punish the murderer, hence the word “punishment” in capital punishment. The point I was trying to make is that you care so much about punishment that you completely ignore all other penological objectives such as deterrance and rehabilitation. The sole purpose (at least I hope) of the penal system is not just to punish, punish, punish. In fact, I believe you care so much about punishment that you’d choose it even if it could be proven that it is actually counterproductive to inflict it. This point you have not refuted. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/225 "2004-09-03T07:40:16Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > The point I was trying to make is that you care so much about punishment that you completely ignore all other penological objectives such as deterrance and rehabilitation. . How do you rehabilitate a man who thought it would be hoot to rape and muder an 81 year old woman? How would you go about that? ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/226 "2004-09-03T07:57:43Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > How do you rehabilitate a man who thought it would be hoot to rape and muder an 81 year old woman? How would you go about that? The same way you’d rehabilitate any other violent offender, I suppose. Figure out what drove him to do it, making a medical diagnosis if necessary, and address the causes. There is no “one size fits all” path to success; indeed, there’s no guarantee of success at all. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/227 "2004-09-03T08:02:25Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > The same way you’d rehabilitate any other violent offender, I suppose. Figure out what drove him to do it, making a medical diagnosis if necessary, and address the causes. There is no “one size fits all” path to success; indeed, there’s no guarantee of success at all. So the rapist and murderer of octgenarian just needs a little TLC and maybe some meds? There’s no room in your mind that he just might be, I don’t know, evil? A man who enjoys the suffering of others? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/228 "2004-09-03T08:14:59Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > The point I was trying to make is that you care so much about punishment that you completely ignore all other penological objectives such as deterrance and rehabilitation. The sole purpose (at least I hope) of the penal system is not just to punish, punish, punish. In fact, I believe you care so much about punishment that you’d choose it even if it could be proven that it is actually counterproductive to inflict it. This point you have not refuted. I think perhaps you have failed to take note of the fact that I’ve been talking exclusively about people who commit murder, and I’ve been arguing that the death penalty is an appropriate consequence for the act of committing murder. Given that, I’ve not had in mind such penological objectives as rehabilitation. And I certainly haven’t ignored the subject of deterrence. Much of the discussion in this thread has been in regard to my belief that the DP is a deterrent. So perhaps what seems to you like a rabid desire on my part for the penal system to punish all criminals harshly is a misunderstanding. This is not the case. My comments, again, have been in regard to what I think should be done in the case of those who have commited murder, and not those who have committed lesser offenses. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/229 "2004-09-03T08:27:30Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > The same way you’d rehabilitate any other violent offender, I suppose. Figure out what drove him to do it, making a medical diagnosis if necessary, and address the causes. There is no “one size fits all” path to success; indeed, there’s no guarantee of success at all. Are you taking into account at all that the methods and addresses you speak of do not exist? No one at present or in the foreseeable future can come anywhere close to diagnosing what is wrong with a particular murderer, nor can they appropriately “address” the cause. Your post reminds me a little of an old Steve Martin routine: “With just two simple words, YOU can have a million dollars and NEVER pay taxes!” How? “Well, first get a million dollars. Then, if the tax man comes to the door asking why you haven’t paid your taxes on it, you say two simple words that no one can refute…'_I forgot_!” Notice how he glossed over the part about getting the million dollars? That’s pretty much what you’re saying with regard to diagnosing and treating murderers. There’s a lot more to it than you seem to think. So much, in fact, that right now – unlike making a million dollars – it isn’t even _possible_. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/230 "2004-09-03T10:02:49Z")
**SA** , will you at least acknowledge that the proDPers’ justifications are mostly emotional, and the antiDPers’ are based on cold logic? I’m preparted to acknowledge the difference of opinion re: which one is more relevant. But it seems clear to me that proDPers are focused on revenge (leaving aside judgments of whether that’s right or not) while antiDPers are focused on what cold logic might suggest what – unproven – will work out best for society overall, in the long run? Not judging whether they’re right to think so, but acknowledging that this is in fact what they believe? ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/231 "2004-09-03T10:14:19Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > So the rapist and murderer of octgenarian just needs a little TLC and maybe some meds? There’s no room in your mind that he just might be, I don’t know, evil? A man who enjoys the suffering of others? Sure, that’s a possibility. Since I haven’t met him, and I’m not a psychiatrist, I can’t make that call myself. But I don’t think you’ll find “evil” in the DSM - you’ll find disorders with possible causes and potential treatments, one of which will probably fit anyone you consider evil. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > Are you taking into account at all that the methods and addresses you speak of do not exist? No one at present or in the foreseeable future can come anywhere close to diagnosing what is wrong with a particular murderer, nor can they appropriately “address” the cause. Oh, OK. I didn’t realize the field of psychology was a total fraud. Thanks for clearing that up. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/232 "2004-09-03T10:16:45Z")
If someone killed my child I would want to kill them painfully and slowly. I would want to get the most gruesome revenge I could. But that is why we have a justice system and do not rely on vigilantes. Victims (or families of victims) obviously want revenge. They are obviously emotional. They don’t have a sense of rationality (nor should they). Society needs to remain level headed to protect both victims and criminals. Revenge is not what a justice system should be about. The justice system should protect victims and rehabilitate and punish criminals. We would all be better off if society worried more about making sure people did not become criminals in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/233 "2004-09-03T10:21:21Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > Sure, that’s a possibility. Since I haven’t met him, and I’m not a psychiatrist, I can’t make that call myself. But I don’t think you’ll find “evil” in the DSM - you’ll find disorders with possible causes and potential treatments, one of which will probably fit anyone you consider evil. > . So you want to help these criminals. They’re not bad, just sick and need help. That seems to be what you are saying. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/234 "2004-09-03T10:27:27Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > So you want to help these criminals. They’re not bad, just sick and need help. That seems to be what you are saying. They needed help BEFORE they became criminals. Most crime doesn’t happen in a vaccum. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/235 "2004-09-03T10:29:32Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > So the rapist and murderer of octgenarian just needs a little TLC and maybe some meds? There’s no room in your mind that he just might be, I don’t know, evil? A man who enjoys the suffering of others? If he does, he’s probably a sadistic psychopath and should get treatment, as any other person with an illness. > [@](#): > > So you want to help these criminals. They’re not bad, just sick and need help. That seems to be what you are saying. If they are mentally ill, they do need help. How anyone of normal intelligence can disagree with this is beyond me. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > Are we trying to teach people that it’s wrong to kidnap people and keep them against their will by arresting them and keeping them in a jail cell? Such a notion is ludicrous. No disagreement here, which is exactly why the current penal system is ludicrous. > [@](#): > > The purpose of capital punishment is to punish the murderer, hence the word “punishment” in capital punishment. The idea is that if you choose to deprive someone else of life, you lose the right to keep your own. But what’s the point of this? Why do it? What are you trying to achieve? What interests are satisfied? In what way does the world become a better place through this practice? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/236 "2004-09-03T10:38:32Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > If he does, he’s probably a sadistic psychopath and should get treatment, as any other person with an illness. > > If they are mentally ill, they do need help. How anyone of normal intelligence can disagree with this is beyond me. > > ? Cruelty is a mental illness? Got a cite for that? Are sadistic psychopaths incapable of controlling their actions? Is a a sadist automatically a pyschopath? Can a sadist not be of sound mind? Got a cite for that? ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/237 "2004-09-03T10:42:09Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > So you want to help these criminals. They’re not bad, just sick and need help. That seems to be what you are saying. If we can help them, that’s good for everyone - that’s one more productive member of society and one less criminal. Many of them probably are sick and need help. Some are just assholes who could still benefit from some help. Some are determined to stay assholes and won’t respond to help. They are all responsible for their crimes, but that doesn’t mean they’re all doomed to repeat those crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/238 "2004-09-03T10:42:24Z")
> [@calm kiwi](#): > > They needed help BEFORE they became criminals. Most crime doesn’t happen in a vaccum. What kind of help are you refering to? ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/239 "2004-09-03T10:44:53Z")
If sadists were “normal” none of us would be safe leaving the house in the morning. I’m sure there are some sadists who have genuine mental disorders. I’m equally sure that some of those who get gratification from being cruel are products of the lives they have lived. If we lived in a kinder more caring world we would have more kind caring people and less troubled, pained people who felt the urge to hurt the world that has hurt them. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/240 "2004-09-03T10:47:47Z")
> [@calm kiwi](#): > > I’m sure there are some sadists who have genuine mental disorders. I’m equally sure that some of those who get gratification from being cruel are products of the lives they have lived. > > If we lived in a kinder more caring world we would have more kind caring people and less troubled, pained people who felt the urge to hurt the world that has hurt them. Anything but blaming the actual guy that did the murder… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045.md?page=13)