# What is with “100% no death penalty under any circumstances” type people??? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 29, 2004, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045 "2004-08-29T03:30:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/281 "2004-09-04T11:25:37Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > . Come on now, “evil” is a really antiquated notion. How about greed and avarice? Hatred? Those still valid? We’ve already agreed cruelty still rings a bell in the modern world. since evil is antiquated, what would be a better word to describe the motivations of someone who would kill you, personally, for fun or profit? ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/282 "2004-09-04T11:34:49Z")
For profit? Greedy bastard. For fun? Either sadist, fucked in the head or yeah maybe plain old evil. But maybe evil only ever was fucked in the head? ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/283 "2004-09-04T11:58:53Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > No, you’ve show that it does not deter other murders. Not the same thing. No, actually we’ve shown that it does lead to more murders. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/284 "2004-09-04T12:01:22Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > No, actually we’ve shown that it does lead to more murders. Could you do me a favor and quote the proof on that? I missed it. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/285 "2004-09-04T12:45:23Z")
Sorry, I’m not going to go through six pages to find something that’s already been said (and is general knowledge anyway). To sum up, countries without the death penalty have lower crime rates than countries with it, and states within the US without the death penalty have lower crime rates that states with it. Also, according to a study performed by one of our own posters, the crime rates went down during the time that the death penalty was abolished and went up when it was reinstated. Now, if you have an alternative interpretation of the facts, please tell us. If you have other facts, please show us. But please don’t embarrass yourself further by harping on about “evil” or whatever you want to call it, while ignoring reality. Feel free to yell that I make factual claims without backing them up, have no cites to show, etcetera, even though we both know it’s untrue. I don’t really care, and it’s probably the only way you can get out of this thread while still managing to persuade yourself that you didn’t go down with a whimper. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/286 "2004-09-04T13:02:09Z")
Was I rude to at some point, **Priceguy**? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/287 "2004-09-05T04:56:26Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > Sorry, I’m not going to go through six pages to find something that’s already been said (and is general knowledge anyway). To sum up, countries without the death penalty have lower crime rates than countries with it, and states within the US without the death penalty have lower crime rates that states with it. Also, according to a study performed by one of our own posters, the crime rates went down during the time that the death penalty was abolished and went up when it was reinstated. > > . I must be an even bigger idiot than you think. Not only can I not find that proof that the DP leads to more murders posted in this thread, I can’t even find where someone made the argument! > [@](#): > > _To sum up, countries without the death penalty have lower crime rates than countries with it, and states within the US without the death penalty have lower crime rates that states with it._ You meant\* most \* states, right? Not _all \* states? Because some have posted some stats that show Michigan and Alaska, both non-DP states, have higher murder rates (for most of an 8 year period) than the national average. If the DP leads to more murders, and they don’t have the DP, then why is their muder rate higher than the national average? And a few states with \* the DP have rates consistantly far below that average. What’s up with that_? Could it be factors \*completely unrelated \* to the state’s use of the DP? **mhendo** , who has argued throughout this thread, with considerable success, that the DP in not a deterrent, also says this: > [@](#): > > And, to tell you the truth, i don’t think that those countries have lower homicide rates simply because they don’t have the death penalty and this: > [@](#): > > I’ll say again, i’m not arguing that getting rid of the death penalty in the DP states will necessarily cause the murder rate to drop; but evidence suggests very strongly that the presence of the death penalty, even in places like Texas where it is actually enforced with some regularity, does very little or nothing to discourage violent crimes like murder. You, yourself, said this: > [@](#): > > That is precisely the point. And if they don’t think of the consequences, then how could the consequences keep them from doing the deed? all of which seems to suggest that the DP is irrelevant to the murder rates because murderers don’t really let the thought of capture and punishment affect their decision to commit the crime. So, please, in all sincerity, show me something that says the DP _leads_ to more murders, rather than a corelation that might gloss over some of the factors **mhendo** mentioned earlier… ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/288 "2004-09-05T13:09:11Z")
It would be hard to show the DP leads to more or less murders because America seems to be the only country to have abolished it and then bought it back (yes I know not all states bought it back), but America does seem to have a higher murder rate then other western countries. I don’t know if this is related to the DP or not but that statistic does not leave me wishing we had the DP. ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/289 "2004-09-05T16:36:21Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > I must be an even bigger idiot than you think. Well… > [@](#): > > Could it be factors \*completely unrelated \* to the state’s use of the DP? Ya _ **think?** _ It has been argued that the DP is a deterrent. This is demonstrably false. Since there are factors that _do_ have an effect on the morder rate, don’t you think it would make sense to study those and implement policies (drug and alcohol education and treatment, for example, or early childhood development programs) that are more civil and humane than frying someone? Hell, just about every story I’ve heard or read about someone on death row points out that the subject has a history of physical, sexual, or emotional abuse; was poor; had a substance abuse problem; dropped out of high school; had mental or emotional incapacities; started getting arrested at 10 and thrown in juvie without receiving anything resembling counseling…the list goes on. Now, of course, someone is going point out the small handful of death row inmates without any of those issues while conveniently ignoring the rest of the 500+ people on death row who had serious problems before they were convicted. Naw, implementing social programs that could help prevent crime in the first place makes too much sense. Damn pinko liberals. Let’s just fry 'em after they commit murder instead. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2004, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/290 "2004-09-06T23:46:52Z")
> [@chique](#): > > Well…Ya _ **think?** _ It has been argued that the DP is a deterrent. This is demonstrably false. . It has been argued that it is a deterrent. But not by me. I have said specifically that I do not think it is. Itwas then argued on this very page that is was a factor driving the murder rate _up_. THAT is what I am challenging. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/291 "2004-09-07T15:31:33Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > It has been argued that it is a deterrent. But not by me. I have said specifically that I do not think it is. Itwas then argued on this very page that is was a factor driving the murder rate _up_. THAT is what I am challenging. I’m with you on that. While some data _may suggest_ this, I think it’s still inconclusive. Of course, while all such data is inconclusive at best, elimination of the DP for the time being seems the most prudent course, would you agree? ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/292 "2004-09-07T15:53:00Z")
I’m sorry, I somehow missed this post for several days. Will reply to it now. I also apologize for my unwarranted lack of politeness. > [@spooje](#): > > Not only can I not find that proof that the DP leads to more murders posted in this thread, I can’t even find where someone made the argument! I did. So did **chique** , in post 218. That is, however, slightly beside the point. What I originally said (and later condensed, for typing fatigue reasons, to “death penalty leads to more murders”) was “we’ve shown you the facts, which seem to indicate (and please present any alternative interpretation you may have lying around) that killing murderers leads to more murders”. I wanted to hear your interpretation of the facts. > [@](#): > > You, yourself, said this: > > > [@](#): > > > > That is precisely the point. And if they don’t think of the consequences, then how could the consequences keep them from doing the deed? > > all of which seems to suggest that the DP is irrelevant to the murder rates because murderers don’t really let the thought of capture and punishment affect their decision to commit the crime. You’re misinterpreting my statement. I didn’t say, and don’t believe, that the death penalty is _irrelevant_ to the murder rates. I’m just saying the death penalty doesn’t bring them _down_. I do, in fact, believe that the death penalty brings them _up_. The statistics I have seen tend to back this up, as **chique** says. Why does this happen? Well, I’m no psychologist, but I believe that an overwhelming majority of us, consciously or unconsciously, willingly or unwillingly, look to society/government/state as a guide, rolemodel, parent. If the state kills people, our threshold against killing people will be lower. If the state incarcerates people, our threshold against robbing people of their freedom will be lower. This is especially true of the people who are being incarcerated, or whose friends are getting killed, ie people who are already criminals. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/293 "2004-09-07T15:54:57Z")
OK, I just re-read your posts and realized you already know/understand much of what I wrote. You want a specific cite. Unfortunately, most of the statistics I’ve seen come from a couple of Swedish books, which would be little help to you. Give me a little while. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/294 "2004-09-07T16:45:37Z")
For some reason, I can find mostly Canadian statistics, so let’s use Canada as an example. Here’s some of it: [http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=167](http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=167) > [@](#): > > The abolition of the death penalty in Canada in 1976 has not led to increased homicide rates. Statistics Canada reports that the number of homicides in Canada in 2001 (554) was 23% lower than the number of homicides in 1975 (721), the year before the death penalty was abolished. [http://www.studyworld.com/newsite/ReportEssay/SocialIssues/Political\Crime\_and\_the\_Death\_Penalty-108.htm](http://www.studyworld.com/newsite/ReportEssay/SocialIssues/Political%5CCrime_and_the_Death_Penalty-108.htm) > [@](#): > > In 1994, the average murder rate in a death penalty state of a population of 100,00 was 8.0, for a non-death penalty state, 4.4. In Canada the homicide rate per 100,000 people was 3.09 in 1975, this was when they had the death penalty. In 1976 Canada got rid of the death penalty. In 1986 the crime rate decreased to 2.19 per 100,000 people, the lowest in 15 years. [http://my.hsonline.net/~beamer/societal.html](http://my.hsonline.net/~beamer/societal.html) > [@](#): > > In Canada, the homicide rate per 100,000 population fell from a peak of 3.09 in 1975, the year before the abolition of the death penalty for murder, to 2.41 in 1980, and since then it has remained relatively stable. Now, does this prove that abolition of the death penalty in Canada directly led to lower murder rates? Of course not. Nor could any other statistic I could care to show you. We have to interpret the statistics in the most reasonable way. I know my interpretation, which is that the abolition of the death penalty did in fact lead to lower murder rates, and if you have a different one, please tell me. ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/295 "2004-09-07T16:56:25Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > I did. So did **chique** , in post 218. Whoawhoawhoa…I don’t think the study I did _proves_ that the death penalty leads to a higher murder rate. I think it does a pretty good job, however, of showing that the murder rate will not increase if the death penalty is abolished. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/296 "2004-09-07T17:01:02Z")
> [@chique](#): > > Whoawhoawhoa…I don’t think the study I did _proves_ that the death penalty leads to a higher murder rate. Nor did I claim it did. This was in response to **spooje** saying that he couldn’t find where anyone made the argument that the death penalty leads to a higher murder rates, which I believed you did, as well as I. If I was wrong, I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/297 "2004-09-07T18:20:03Z")
I wasn’t going to revisit this thread, but i thought i’d make a small contribution on the issue of whether executions might actually increase the murder rate. [Cost, Deterrence, Incapacitation, Brutalization and the Death Penalty: The Scientific Evidence](http://dpa.state.ky.us/library/advocate/jan00/dppotter.html), by Gary W. Potter, Ph.D. Potter is a professor in the Department of Justice and Police Studies at Eastern Kentucky University, and this document is a statement he made before Kentucky’s Joint Interim Health and Welfare Committee. His statement is essentially a summary of prior scholarly literature on the subject, and he names the studies he uses as supporting evidence. Potter starts out with the following: > [@](#): > > The scientifically proven facts of the death penalty are clear. Those facts are: > > 1. The death penalty has no deterrent value to society. No evidence supporting either a general deterrent or a specific deterrent impact exists and no evidence supporting an incapacitation impact exists. The death penalty performs no crime control function whatsoever. > > **2. The death penalty, in fact, not only does not deter homicide and other crimes, but through a brutalization effect actually increases both homicide and violent crime markedly, seriously increasing the danger to society in states where it is used with any degree of frequency whatsoever.** > > 1. The death penalty, even as constructed in post-Furman statutes, is arbitrary, discriminatory and capricious in its application. The death penalty, in every jurisdiction, discriminates on the basis of race of offender, race of victim, gender, age, and socio-economic status. > > 2. The death penalty, as currently structured and administered, results in jury confusion and misinterpretation of the law at every stage of the process. This confusion seriously prejudices the defendant and results in both reversals on appeal and in a large number of wrongful convictions. > > 3. The death penalty, as currently structured and administered, results in the wrongful conviction and execution of the innocent at a level totally unacceptable in any civilized society. > > 4. The death penalty is enormously costly, strains the budgets of both state and local governments and diverts funds from more effective crime control strategies and victim assistance programs. This is true in all jurisdictions regardless of state statute. The cost of executions exceeds the cost of life imprisonment by a factor of better than two to one in every jurisdiction studied. And this enormous cost is borne by the taxpayers for a crime control policy that only makes violent crime worse. The bolded section shows that at least some scholars believe that the death penalty actually increases the rate of murder and other violent crime. In support of this assertion, Potter offers a section called “The Brutalization Effectof the Death Penalty,” where he presents his evidence, which includes: > [@](#): > > Studies of capital punishment have consistently shown that homicide actually increases in the time period surrounding an execution. Social scientists refer to this as the “brutalization effect.” Execution stimulates homicides in three ways: (1) executions desensitize the public to the immorality of killing, increasing the probability that some people will be motivated to kill; (2) the state legitimizes the notion that vengeance for past misdeeds is acceptable; and (3) executions also have an imitation effect, where people actually follow the example set by the state, after all, people feel if the government can kill its enemies, so can they (Bowers and Pierce, 1980; King, 1978, Forst. 1983). > > Let me clear here. The scientific evidence on the brutalization effect is compelling. We are not talking about one or two speculative studies. We are talking about a body of research that has found over and over again, in state after state, that the use of the death penalty increases, and often sharply increases, the number of homicides. Let me be specific: > > 1. OKLAHOMA: Oklahoma’s return to capital punishment in 1990 was followed by a significant increase in killings that involved strangers, with an increase one stranger homicide per month for the year following an execution. In addition, the analysis also showed a brutalization effect for total homicides as well as a variety of different types of killings that involved both strangers and nonstrangers (Bailey, W.C. 1998. Deterrence, Brutalization, and the Death Penalty: Another Examination of Oklahoma’s Return to Capital Punishment. _Criminology_ 36, 4: 717- 733; Cochran, J.K., M.B. Chamlin, and M. Seth.1994. Deterrence or Brutalization? An Impact Assessment of Oklahoma’s Return to Capital Punishment. _Criminology_ 32, 1: 107-134). > > 2. ARIZONA: Studies in Arizona found an increase in specific types of homicides following an execution in that state. In particular the Arizona study found large increases in spur-of-the-moment homicides that involve strangers and/or arguments and a large increase in gun-related homicides (Thomson, E. 1997. Deterrence Versus Brutalization: The Case of Arizona. _Homicide Studies_ 1, 2: 110-128). > > 3. GEORGIA: A study in Georgia fount that a publicized execution is associated with an increase of 26 homicides, or 6.8 percent increase, in the month of the execution. Overall, publicized executions were associated with an increase of 55 homicides during the time period analyzed (Stack, S. 1993. Execution Publicity and Homicide in Georgia. _American Journal Of Criminal Justice_ 18, 1: 25-39). > > 4. ILLINOIS: A study of capital punishment in Illinois found that the net effect of executions was to increase rather than decrease Chicago first degree murders and total criminal homicides (Bailey, W.C. 1983. Disaggregation in Deterrence and Death Penalty Research - The Case of Murder in Chicago. Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology\* 74,3: 827-859). > > 5. CALIFORNIA: In California studies have found that the number of murders actually increased in the days prior to an execution and on the day of the execution itself. In addition homicides rates were even higher in the weeks after executions (Bowers, W., G. Pierce, and J. McDevitt. 1984. _Legal Homicide: Death as Punishment in America, 1864-1982_. Boston, Northeastern University Press) > > 6. PENNSYLVANIA: A study looking at data for both California and Pennsylvania found that each execution studied was followed by a two- to threefold increase in the number of homicides the next month (Bowers, W, and G. Pierce. 1980. Deterrence or brutalization: What is the effect of executions? _Crime and Delinquency_ 26: 453-484). And in the earliest study demonstrating a brutalization effect, Robert Dann found an average increase of 4.4 homicides for each execution (Dann, Robert. 1935. The deterrent effect of capital punishment. _Friends Social Service Series_ 29). > > Once again the scientific research provides compelling evidence against the death penalty as public policy. The death penalty does, invariably and without exception increase the number of homicides in jurisdictions where it is applied. This has been proven in Pennsylvania, California, Oklahoma, Arizona, Illinois and other jurisdictions. The brutalization thesis is not mere speculation. It has been verified in study after study. If a legislature were looking at the impact of a pharmaceutical drug and only one study suggested that the drug killed more than it cured, legislators would no doubt ban the drug. The evidence with regard to the brutalization theory is far stronger, with at least eleven unrefuted, replicated and valid studies clearly showing a brutalization impact. In the case of the death penalty the cure is clearly worse than the disease, and like a dangerous drug, this cure should be banned. Make of that what you will. I’m sure you could find some death penalty advocates who would disagree with some of those findings, or with the interpretation of the statistics, but the fact is that there are scholarly studies making the claim that the brutalization effect of the death penalty not only can, but does lead to an increase in murder and other violent crime. Finally, some people were arguing earlier in the thread that people would be less likely to commit murder if they knew that the punishment for being caught would be death. Here’s Potter’s take on the subject: > [@](#): > > The most commonly advanced argument in support of capital punishment has been that no offender wants to die, therefore the threat of execution will deter homicide in society at large. While this may seem a common sense fact, it is anything but sensible. The scientific facts are very simple. No credible study of capital punishment in the United States has ever found a deterrent effect. > > In studies of contiguous states, at least one with the death penalty and at least one without, research has shown that there is no deterrent impact from capital punishment (Sellin, T. 1980. _The Penalty of Death_. Beverly Hills, CA: Sage Publications). > > In studies of states where the death penalty was adopted or reinstated after having been abolished, research has once again failed to show any deterrent effect. (Sellin, T. 1980. _The Penalty of Death_. Beverly Hills, CA: Sage Publications; Zeisel, H. 1977. The deterrent effect of the death penalty: Facts v. Faith. In _The Supreme Court Review_ 1976. P. Kurland (ed.). Chicago: IL: University of Chicago Press). > > \ > > The alleged deterrent value of the death penalty is refuted by all the data we have on violent crime. The death penalty, if it is to deter, must be a conscious part of a cost-benefit equation in the perpetrator’s mind. There are very few murders that involve that level of rationality or consciousness of the outcomes. Most murders are (1) committed under the influence of drugs or alcohol; (2) committed by people with severe personality disorders; (3) committed during periods of extreme rage and anger; or (4) committed as a result of intense fear. \*\*None of these states of mind lend itself to the calm reflection required for a deterrent effect. \*\* Bolding mine. This is what i’ve been arguing all along. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/298 "2004-09-07T18:44:31Z")
Excellent post, sir. I salute you. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/299 "2004-09-07T18:45:10Z")
Now, playing devil’s advocate here, what would you all say to the notion that perhaps the murder rate is high in states with the DP not because the DP causes a brutalization effect, but because the crime rates are so high in those states that they feel they _have to_ have the DP? Is there some way to differentiate between the cases? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045/300 "2004-09-07T18:55:03Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Now, playing devil’s advocate here, what would you all say to the notion that perhaps the murder rate is high in states with the DP not because the DP causes a brutalization effect, but because the crime rates are so high in those states that they feel they _have to_ have the DP? Is there some way to differentiate between the cases? I have often wondered the same thing, but it seems (at first glance) that the studies cited have controlled for that. To argue your point you’d have to show that states conducting executions normally have higher murder rates in the months when executions occurred. Looking at the broadness of the studies, that seems like a pretty major coincidence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-with-100-no-death-penalty-under-any-circumstances-type-people/262045.md?page=16)