# What is wrong with american police? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 14, 2022, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823 "2022-04-14T13:29:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2022, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/41 "2022-04-14T17:34:58Z")
> [@mjmartin](#): > > If you look solely at police salaries, this may be true. For many officers, the overtime, details, pensions, etc., can turn policing into a very lucrative career I don’t deny I made a sweeping generalization. I’ve seen communities where the cops are riding high on lucrative speed traps that the county allows, and others where they were as a whole, working second jobs as armed security to make ends meet. It is intensely segmented depending on county/city/state/etc. The leverage issue remains the same in most areas though, where the unions wield their authority to demand additional protections rather than additional pay in most cases. So in short, they trade money for power. And while I’m not talking about union busting (which is a point, but probably deserves another thread), it probably says _something_ about the unions in question where near-immunity to discipline is more important than better tangible compensation. A [useful article](https://www.npr.org/local/309/2020/06/15/877345424/after-decades-of-police-corruption-can-chicago-finally-reform-its-force) (selected from NPR because I find it has _less_ lean), points out that the problem is not just the unions, or the city councils, or even the courts, but all of that and more. Simple it isn’t - and the cost and consequences of fixing it are probably going to be piecemeal for a loooong time to come. Honestly, I think the best thing that has happened in the last decade or so hasn’t come from any of the above - it’s cellphones. The fact that the cops can and will be recorded at any time (and their pushback against it sure shows bad things about their culture) has pushed the whole police brutality from a somebody-elses-problem category to front page news. And that has helped secure convictions that in the past would never have happened. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2022, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/42 "2022-04-14T17:42:42Z")
It’s not the issue of being armed, it’s the idea that force is used to ensure compliance. If someone gets pulled over in a traffic stop why use force to get compliance? If you don’t see a weapon or anything else imminently dangerous to the public just call in for help if he doesn’t cooperate and stay a safe distance away. If he runs try to follow him but don’t put yourself in danger. How the fuck hard is this? Cops should not feel it is necessary to put themselves in danger except in extreme circumstances, otherwise they ought to be protecting themselves. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2022, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/43 "2022-04-14T17:59:15Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > We expect them to be our guard dogs, to put themselves in the way of the danger we create. Including with our NRA-driven gun laws. [Talk about advocating against one’s self-interest. Wow.] To the extent that law enforcement is a dangerous, challenging, and/or highly stressful job (at least a portion of the time), how much of this is a problem of our own making ? Problems can’t ever be _solved_ in the US. They have to be _managed_ via for-profit ‘solutions’ (as always, see: perverse incentives). Crime and punishment, substance abuse, poverty, health and wellness, war and conflict, etc. It all adds up to misery, and misery turns out to be quite profitable. > Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket. –Eric Hoffer And to piggyback on _that_ concept: the Prime Directive of every institution is to protect itself. Put yet another way … > **[Robert F. Kennedy's remarks at the University of Kansas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_F._Kennedy%27s_remarks_at_the_University_of_Kansas)** > > Robert F. Kennedy's remarks at the University of Kansas were given on March 18, 1968. He spoke about student protests, the Vietnam War, and the gross national product. At the time, Kennedy's words on the latter subject went relatively unnoticed, but they have since become famous. > Kennedy had given his first campaign speech earlier that morning at Kansas State University before flying into Lawrence Municipal Airport to give his speech at the University of Kansas. Classes were cancelled in advance... > [@](#): > > Too much and for too long, we seemed to have surrendered personal excellence and community values in the mere accumulation of material things. Our Gross National Product, now, is over $800 billion dollars a year, but that Gross National Product - if we judge the United States of America by that - that Gross National Product counts air pollution and cigarette advertising, and ambulances to clear our highways of carnage. It counts special locks for our doors and the jails for the people who break them. It counts the destruction of the redwood and the loss of our natural wonder in chaotic sprawl. It counts napalm and counts nuclear warheads and armored cars for the police to fight the riots in our cities. It counts [Whitman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman)’s rifle and [Speck](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Speck)’s knife, and the television programs which glorify violence in order to sell toys to our children. [This was 1968. Truer then or now ??] Everything being about the GDP (“spreadsheets belie the humanity”), and how the money gets allocated – as I said – tends to be a highly significant driver in how almost everything works in this country (because money is speech and poor people have no lobbying power). So … yeah … American LEOs are, themselves, victims of this fucked up values system, but it appears that they’re remarkably unaware. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2022, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/44 "2022-04-14T18:06:14Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > It’s not the issue of being armed, it’s the idea that force is used to ensure compliance. If someone gets pulled over in a traffic stop why use force to get compliance? If you don’t see a weapon or anything else imminently dangerous to the public just call in for help if he doesn’t cooperate and stay a safe distance away. If he runs try to follow him but don’t put yourself in danger. How the fuck hard is this? Cops should not feel it is necessary to put themselves in danger except in extreme circumstances, otherwise they ought to be protecting themselves. You’re absolutely correct that this is a part of the problem. Cops shouldn’t _try_ to escalate, and they shouldn’t be _able_ to escalate, either. Better to have multiple ways of reducing risk. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2022, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/45 "2022-04-14T18:58:37Z")
It doesn’t even necessarily have to be a different person. I recently retired from a non-police law enforcement agency with armed officers. In 25 years, I only heard of three work-related incidents where officers shot someone. In two cases , the other person was shooting at them , and in the third the person who was shot was holding a knife to an officer’s throat. It’s not because it was some tiny agency with three officers. It was partly because of the culture - but the culture was that way in part because of the hiring requirements. You couldn’t get hired for my job as your first job out of high school - you needed at least 3 years of social work type experience after obtaining a bachelor’s degree ( and when I was hired, that degree had to be in a social science) . Which means two things - first, the population interested in my job was almost certainly different from the population interested in becoming a police officer and second (and probably more importantly) we all came in with experience at de-escalating situations. No police department is going to provide extended training in de-escalation but they could certainly change their hiring requirements. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2022, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/46 "2022-04-14T19:15:46Z")
True. I was just thinking along the lines of specialization. I’m not so sure expecting cops to be good at all the things they’re expected to do and adding extra ones is realistic; they’re already expected to be good at a bunch of somewhat disparate skills. Maybe change it to be the Public Safety department, and have the police as one part of that along with the conflict resolution people, de-escalation people, social workers, and so forth. Maybe some would be uniformed differently, or not uniformed at all. That way they could all be part of the same department and take advantage of the economies of scale, etc… without necessarily presenting the same front to the public. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2022, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/47 "2022-04-14T19:23:33Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > No police department is going to provide extended training in de-escalation… Why not? ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2022, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/48 "2022-04-14T19:44:29Z")
Supposedly a large part of the training revolves around “officer safety.” Everything is about making sure the officer and his buddy will go home after a shift. But if that were true, it doesn’t explain why so many LEOs escalate situations. I think the real answer is that the LEO culture in the U.S. is very machoistic, full of cowboys, mavericks, and military wanabees. I also think a lot of them were bullied as children. To these people, physical altercations are _exciting_. ---
**Author:** ![mjmartin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3d9bf3/32.png) [@mjmartin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmartin)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2022, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/49 "2022-04-14T20:03:07Z")
I was involved in a very minor way in a case a few years ago where my client was being sued for hurting a police officer. The officer broke his hand when he punched my client in the head. There was no video from the incident, but it was generally agreed by everyone that my client was drunk and acting like a fool. The officers knocked him to the ground and then when he didn’t immediately roll over they beat the ever loving shit out of him. Or in their words “they applied pain compliance techniques to ensure officer safety.” My client spent 2 weeks in the hospital, and then his insurance company paid out $100,000 to the officer. If the officer had spent 2 seconds talking to the guy once he was on the ground he would have found out that my client couldn’t roll over because his partner was standing on his leg. The entire event was nothing more than escalation from the first moment the police approached him. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2022, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/50 "2022-04-14T20:27:44Z")
Because it will take too long and cost too much. Most police academies in my area last around six months and the recruits are employees receiving pay and benefits during that time. They aren’t going to extend that for three or six additional months. It’s my understanding that in some places, people attend the academy on their own dime before being hired - those would be more willing to change. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2022, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/51 "2022-04-14T20:41:29Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Also, American police are fetishized and militarized in a way that you don’t see in a lot of democracies. The irony being, of course, that in a [lot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Gendarmerie) of [European](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Guard_(Spain)) [countries](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carabinieri), part of the on-the-street “police” are _actually_ military. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2022, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/52 "2022-04-14T21:08:35Z")
> [@mjmartin](#): > > and then his insurance company paid out $100,000 to the officer And then the officer retires early on “disability.” ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2022, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/53 "2022-04-14T21:29:24Z")
I’m on of those knuckleheads who thinks the US should look to what many western democracies in Europe are doing as a model (for a lot of stuff, not just police). Federal police force, requiring bachelors degree, generally unarmed. Start there. I’ll just jump on my unicorn and see myself out. ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2022, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/54 "2022-04-14T22:20:38Z")
And after the six months in the academy, a young officer is paired with a veteran for additional “training,” which is unstructured and unsupervised.If they didn’t learn the “us vs. them” culture in the academy, they certainly have by the time they’re in their own squad car. Derek Chauvin, with a record of eighteen formal complaints, was designated as such a trainer. In fact, at least one of the officers one the scene of the Floyd murder was a trainee. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2022, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/55 "2022-04-14T22:38:12Z")
I knew one of you would be along eventually. This is why we have the police we have a significant segment of America want police to brutalize blacks to keep them in line. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2022, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/56 "2022-04-14T22:51:57Z")
I have brought this up in numerous different contexts on the SD. More’s the pity. If you don’t know about these two experiments, they’re both worth a quick read, and – perhaps – a viewing of one of the videos/documentaries: > **[Stanford prison experiment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > > The Stanford prison experiment (SPE) was a psychological experiment conducted in the summer of 1971. It was a two-week simulation of a prison environment that examined the effects of situational variables on participants' reactions and behaviors. Stanford University psychology professor Philip Zimbardo led the research team who administered the study. > Participants were recruited from the local community with an ad in the newspapers offering $15... [**LINK TO PAY YouTube MOVIE**](https://youtu.be/mDtfcqrSETk) I also often cite (and think it’s germane here) the Third Wave Experiment: > **[The Third Wave (experiment)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Wave_(experiment))** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > The Third Wave was an experimental social movement created by California high school history teacher Ron Jones in 1967 to explain how the German population could have accepted the actions of the Nazi regime during the rise of the Third Reich and the Second World War. > While Jones taught his students about Nazi Germany during his senior level Contemporary World History class, Jones found it difficult to explain how the German people could have acc... [**Free YouTube video of ‘The Wave–’ a movie based on the experiment**](https://youtu.be/ICng-KRxXJ8) What I really wonder – directly related to the OP – is if the same experiment, conducted in another advanced economy nation, would yield similar results. Or _are_ US Americans just inherently more broken than so many others. ? I don’t believe that a dysfunctional law enforcement community is, therefore, inevitable. Rather, I believe it may be some measure of default unless well thought-out strategies, mission, recruiting, hiring, initial _and_ ongoing psychological evaluation, etc., etc., etc. are conceived and implemented. So even if we can’t change the entire American culture, understanding the dynamics that power implies may help us modulate the worst of those impulses and reduce the frequency of tragic outcomes. Y’know … maybe. I wish criminals weren’t criminals, but – call me odd – I continue to expect much more from our highly trained, well equipped, well paid agents of the State than I do from people we blithely label _as_ ‘criminals.’ ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2022, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/57 "2022-04-14T23:11:54Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > people we blithely label _as_ ‘criminals.’ Especially when that “criminal” just has an expired registration. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2022, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/58 "2022-04-14T23:17:59Z")
And if there’s also an **[air freshener hanging](https://www.fox9.com/news/1-year-after-daunte-wrights-killing-in-brooklyn-center)** from your rear-view mirror, I think it’s _automatically_ a capital crime. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2022, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/59 "2022-04-14T23:31:47Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > The only practical solution is to make the LEOs accountable for their actions, and to impose serious penalties for LEOs who perform illegal acts or break rules. One way to facilitate accountability and generally improve officer behavior is to end the urban mercenary ethos. Too many officers live in Shady Glen, commute 20 miles into Brickville to bust heads, then drive home at the end of the day to have dinner in a completely different community. They have no personal inerest in making Brickville a better place to live because that is not where they live. I believe a large fraction of the problem of unwarranted police violence could be addressed by requiring them to live in the communities in which they work, and a few cities are actually trying that. Of course, the whole contemporary concept of “justice” is based on faulty dynamics and midaeval principles, and until we fix that, our problems will persist, and the police will continue to manifest as a symptom of them. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2022, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/60 "2022-04-14T23:33:25Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > If you don’t know about these two experiments, they’re both worth a quick read, and – perhaps – a viewing of one of the videos/documentaries: > > [Stanford prison experiment - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment) I was under the impression that there has been a lot of criticism about the Stanford prison experiment in regards to what Zimbardo found. Aside from the ethical concerns, there is evidence that Zimbardo or others coached the “guards” on how they should behave. i.e. Getting tough on them, putting bags over their heads, etc., etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823.md?page=4)