# What is wrong with american police? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 14, 2022, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823 "2022-04-14T13:29:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2022, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/121 "2022-04-15T17:58:53Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > When the guy got angry, the cops remained very calm, and eventually said they understood, and apologized. But that’s because the cops remained calm in the face of his “disrespect”. They didn’t put their hands on him, they didn’t insult him with “Do you speak English?” They even told him why they were stopping him, even though they lied in the process. They didn’t tackle him to the ground and then begin trying to tase him. If they had chosen to ensure compliance and tase him at that point, would you think they were out of line, or would you say that he deserved it for being a dumbfuck? The officer in the Lyoya altercation escalated at every turn. He insulted Lyoya from the very beginning, put his hands on him unnecessarily, tackled him to the ground, and then attempted to cause him pain with a taser. Then he shot him. So, if the cops had escalated the situation in Eric’s case, if they had acted the same as the one that killed Lyoya, would you now be sitting here smuggly claiming that it was his fault for being a dumbfuck? Now, I’ll admit that it’s hard for me to understand Lyoya’s mindset, as a white male who grew up watching my father argue with cops much more aggressively than Lyoya did, and get away with it just fine. (Sure, it didn’t get him out of the ticket, but he was never assaulted, much less shot.) > [@Dinsdale](#): > > But all in all - that video looks to me like a situation that pretty much went as it ought to. The shopper was reasonably angry - but he didn’t run away and fight. Right, and other than initiating the contact at all, they behaved more or less professionally. They didn’t assault him. Had they assaulted him as the cop did to Lyoya, he may have pulled away and tried to get away from them as well. Which in your mindset, seems to justify summary execution. (That’s a mindset I really don’t get, but then, I don’t really want to get it either.) ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2022, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/122 "2022-04-15T18:02:51Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > My personal feeling - which I’m sure many will disagree with - is that the fight or flight reflex clearly exists, but it is excessively relied upon and extended to excuse poor choices/behavior. I will repeat my early point to you. It appears that you have never been in a situation where your irrational instincts governed your actions. Others have. And yes, that literally means running, screaming, fighting, etc. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2022, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/123 "2022-04-15T20:17:39Z")
I wish I could remember who, but I’ve heard numerous interviews with a retired Judge – maybe **[Nancy Gertner, from Harvard Law School](https://hls.harvard.edu/faculty/directory/10303/Gertner)** – who talks at some length and with some eloquence about judges in the criminal justice system (not only the criminal justice system, but it’s germane here). One thing she says that resonates with me is just how much of a bubble these judges wind up in. Doctorate degrees, very solid incomes, large homes in safe suburbs, prosecutors and top police management on speed dial. It’s rarified air. It’s a textbook ivory tower stuff. > **Quick detour** > > It’s something that many celebrated when Ketanji Brown Jackson got nominated and appointed to the SCOTUS: her life’s experience was substantively different from most of those who came before her. So, not only are many/most judges about as far removed from the people over whom they sit in judgment (with unimaginably high stakes) as they possibly _could_ be, they also lose any meaningful capacity to understand how different the accused’s lives are from the life of the judge, and – almost certainly – nearly everybody with whom the judge is acquainted. It’s also difficult to understand how utterly alone one stands if/when the criminal justice system has its claws in you. Even criminal defense attorneys only superficially ‘work for you.’ Everybody else in the equation is their colleague. I’ve mentioned here before that a relative was told in year one law school, “Clients will come and go, but you _work with_ these people.” If I were a minority in the US – particularly if I were not **wealthy** – the worst I would fear is being needlessly and unjustifiably murdered by the police. The ‘best’ I might hope for is to be wrongly indicted and convicted, and spend years or decades imprisoned. Poor people are easy pickings in the eyes of our crime and punishment system. Again: peruse the **[DoJ’s report on Ferguson, Missouri](https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/press-releases/attachments/2015/03/04/ferguson_police_department_report.pdf)**. Wild outlier ? Oh, I tend to doubt it. Marginalized people are virtually unable to fight back, so they tend to be treated – by design or by default – as a justification for larger police budgets, more specialized weaponry, increased sentencing, dealing with revenue shortfalls, and on and on and on. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. Did Loya do something ‘wrong ?’ “First cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.” (Matthew 7:3-5) ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2022, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/124 "2022-04-15T20:41:12Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > The ‘best’ I might hope for is to be wrongly indicted and convicted, and spend years or decades imprisoned. Or beaten and humiliated. > **[Video Shows Carolina Cop Violently Arrest Black Man For Sitting On His Porch](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/dejuan-yource-arrested-on-porch_n_57eec39ee4b024a52d2ef329)** > > Greensboro Officer Travis Cole was stripped of his law enforcement credentials, but he escaped criminal charges. Even if charges are dropped, that still leaves scars. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2022, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/125 "2022-04-15T20:41:27Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Which in your mindset, seems to justify summary execution. You know, it is useful when someone tosses out exaggerated bullshit like this. Thanks for the clear signal that you have no interest in any sort of polite, intelligent discussion. I might have otherwise been mistaken as to who I was dealing with. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2022, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/126 "2022-04-15T20:45:08Z")
You are the one that is saying that the shooting was justified, no matter how “polite” you are in your commentary, nor how “intelligently” you denigrate the person who was shot. If you think it makes you sound bad, maybe you should look to your own biases, instead of complaining about people calling you out on them. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2022, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/127 "2022-04-16T01:57:25Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > You know, it is useful when someone tosses out exaggerated bullshit like this. Exaggerated? If you’re not here to try to justify Patrick Loyoya’s death, what’s the point of this? > [@Dinsdale](#): > > But please explain to me why there has been no mention in this thread (based on my somewhat quick reading) that is is not really a good idea to ignore a policeman’s command, to run away, and then to fight with the cop, struggling for his taser? There’s absolutely no reason to bring this up in the context of this thread, unless you’re seeking to minimize Lyoya’s murder. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2022, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/128 "2022-04-16T07:49:26Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > One thing she says that resonates with me is just how much of a bubble these judges wind up in. Doctorate degrees, very solid incomes, large homes in safe suburbs, prosecutors and top police management on speed dial. Hey, @Dinsdale, remind me, what’s your job, again? ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2022, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/129 "2022-04-16T12:23:25Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > If you had just said something like, “Peace officer seems a contradiction in terms” Hi I’m back. I left the thread because it was getting close to sleep time where I live. I don’t think “peace officer” is a contradiction in terms. What would the contradiction be? I just think it is dangerous when we give people titles that elevate them above what they actually do. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2022, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/130 "2022-04-16T13:04:31Z")
**Dinsdale** as I see it there are three possibilities. The first is that you are an unusually cool customer who never does dumb things under extreme pressure and when panicked or fearful. In which case you are unusual and should probably listen to what the more normal people here have to say. The second is you have led a sheltered, unusually calm and safe existence and so don’t know how you would behave under extreme pressure and when panicked or fearful. In which case you are unusual and should probably listen to what the people here who have lived less sheltered and cosseted lives have to say. The third is that you are a smug, comfy-armchair-pontificating, hypocritical, smartassed fuckhead. Under any option you are a substantial part of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2022, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/131 "2022-04-16T13:27:58Z")
I believe the point he’s making is that black people simply have no reason to be panicked or fearful when dealing with cops, since all you’re likely to experience is “unwarranted unpleasantness, indignity, etc.” ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2022, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/132 "2022-04-16T13:30:27Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > I don’t think “peace officer” is a contradiction in terms. What would the contradiction be? Given some of the tactics they used in heightening tensions and even directly initiating riots during protest demonstrations, I would say that they are not always used to keep the peace. On an individual level, they also have a tendency to escalate situations to where one that could have been peacefully resolved is instead resolved through violence. So, I _would_ say that peace officer, in many cases, is a contradiction. > [@Isamu](#): > > I just think it is dangerous when we give people titles that elevate them above what they actually do. However, the point of them _is_ to keep the peace. And that peace is the peace of the white cisgendered straight christian male, and they are used to keep “others” from disturbing that peace. So, I say it as no compliment when I call them a peace officer, it’s either ironic in use when they contribute to disorder, and it is condemning in its use as a tool of oppression. It’s also a useful term that encompases much more of our “justice” system than just police officers. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2022, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/133 "2022-04-16T13:31:49Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > The second is you have led a sheltered, unusually calm and safe existence and so don’t know how you would behave under extreme pressure and when panicked or fearful. In which case you are unusual and should probably listen to what the people here who have lived less sheltered and cosseted lives have to say. There is tons of advice on what to do if you encounter a bear. Sometimes we hear stories of people who do the wrong things when they encounter a bear and are harmed as a result. Until you’ve walked around a bend in the path and come face to face with a bear, you don’t know how you will react either. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2022, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/134 "2022-04-16T13:43:16Z")
That’s horrific. And the LEO wasn’t prosecuted. 🤔 ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2022, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/135 "2022-04-16T15:59:15Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > The first is that you are an unusually cool customer who never does dumb things under extreme pressure and when panicked or fearful. In which case you are unusual and should probably listen to what the more normal people here have to say. I find this somewhat problematic. NEVER does dumb things? I’ve fucked up many a time. And have experienced unfortunate repercussions as a result. And when I have, I say, “Damn, why did I do that? That was unnecessary and stupid of me.” And then - all too often, I repeat similar things. Of course, option 3 is looking damned familiar… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2022, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/136 "2022-04-16T16:11:38Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > And when I have, I say, “Damn, why did I do that? That was unnecessary and stupid of me.” And then - all too often, I repeat similar things. Good that you had the opportunity to live and learn from your mistake. Unlike those “dumbfucks” that were not given such grace. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2022, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/137 "2022-04-20T20:10:26Z")
_There are four types of people who join the military. For some, it’s family trade. Others are patriots, eager to serve. Next you have those who just need a job. Then there’s the kind who want the legal means of killing other people._ **Jack Reacher** This also applies to people who want to be cops. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2022, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/138 "2022-04-22T13:10:56Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > However, the point of them _is_ to keep the peace Their job is to enforce the law. They can’t protect you and they don’t often serve you. It is the job of every person in society to keep the peace. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2022, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/139 "2022-04-22T13:45:00Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > It is the job of every person in society to keep the peace. I mean: It is the responsibility of every person in society to keep the peace. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2022, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823/140 "2022-04-22T15:35:24Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Their job is to enforce the law. Well, enforce the law as they see fit, anyway. They can let some things slide, and drill down on others, entirely up to their discretion. So, when they catch Timmy smoking weed behind the clubhouse, they take it from him, and tell them if they catch him again, they will tell his parents. When they catch LeBron with a rolling paper, he is arrested. > [@Isamu](#): > > They can’t protect you and they don’t often serve you. Never said they did. > [@Isamu](#): > > It is the job of every person in society to keep the peace. Which is what they tell to minorities that start to get “uppity” about the oppression that they are under. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-american-police/962823.md?page=8)