# What is your church doing to change public perception? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 8, 2006, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-church-doing-to-change-public-perception/339017 "2006-01-08T15:55:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-church-doing-to-change-public-perception/339017/21 "2006-01-08T22:42:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’m a Unitarian Universalist . . . The UUA is very gay-friendly and I’d like to be able to say it’s doing something to “change public perception” – but most people seem to recall its existence only when Garrison Keillor makes jokes about it. Well, since you don’t even have to believe in god to belong to the UU church, I have a difficult time even counting this as a christian religion. Many christians attend, but the umbrella organization is more of a club than a church. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-church-doing-to-change-public-perception/339017/22 "2006-01-08T22:53:11Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > There are exceptionally few churches for which anything to do with homosexuality is a core belief. … My guess is the reason that one might attend a Baptist church is because of the things that are actually core beliefs Exactamundo. It is understandable that for a homosexual, a church’s attitude toward homosexuality is very high on the list of things that would define it for them. But is nowhere nearly so important for the churches themselves. I was raised Southern Baptist, and my father and brother are SB ministers. I’ve probably heard three thousand Southern Baptist sermons in my life. I don’t recall ever once hearing homosexality ever even being mentioned. I am currently a member of one of the conservative Episcopal Dioceses that **Polycarp** is opposed to, and, outside of the ordination controversy, I don’t recall homosexuality ever getting more than a passing mention. The truth is that for that for Christians, even Southern Baptists, even for the large majority of conservative Southern Baptists, this not major issue. The popular stereotype of tens of thousands of sweaty Reverends angrily condemning the sodomites to hell from the pulpit is pure fiction. If you want to know what the “core beliefs” of any church or Christian organization is, read their Statement of Faith or Doctrinal Statement or whatever they call it; nearly all of them have one. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-church-doing-to-change-public-perception/339017/23 "2006-01-08T22:57:32Z")
> [@furt](#): > > The popular stereotype of tens of thousands of sweaty Reverends angrily condemning the sodomites to hell from the pulpit is pure fiction. Not if you substitute “hundreds” for “tens of thousands,” it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-church-doing-to-change-public-perception/339017/24 "2006-01-08T23:03:40Z")
> [@](#): > > **kalhoun** : See, the way I see it is that as long as the bigotry in baptist (or most christian) doctrine exists, you are accepting that as your own when you join. The doctrine of loving one another exists as the second great commandment in Christian teachings. Not only am I to love the homosexual, which is not a problem for me, but I am also to love the bigot – which is more difficult. Although I may try to convince people that it is not our place to judge others, I must also practice that myself. In becoming a _human being_, I am the Nazi; I am the Jew; I am the Palestinian; I am the oppressor; I am the oppressed. In becoming a Christian, as is true in many other faiths, I become part of the will to heal and unify. Yet I am imperfect. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-church-doing-to-change-public-perception/339017/25 "2006-01-08T23:22:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Not if you substitute “hundreds” for “tens of thousands,” it isn’t. I’ll grant that. And when you realize that there are something like 200, 000 churches, you get some perspective. And from the point of view of those types – the Bob Jones of the world – the SBC is liberal. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-church-doing-to-change-public-perception/339017/26 "2006-01-08T23:47:32Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Exactamundo. It is understandable that for a homosexual, a church’s attitude toward homosexuality is very high on the list of things that would define it for them. But is nowhere nearly so important for the churches themselves. > > I was raised Southern Baptist, and my father and brother are SB ministers. I’ve probably heard three thousand Southern Baptist sermons in my life. I don’t recall ever once hearing homosexality ever even being mentioned. I am currently a member of one of the conservative Episcopal Dioceses that **Polycarp** is opposed to, and, outside of the ordination controversy, I don’t recall homosexuality ever getting more than a passing mention. The truth is that for that for Christians, even Southern Baptists, even for the large majority of conservative Southern Baptists, this not major issue. The popular stereotype of tens of thousands of sweaty Reverends angrily condemning the sodomites to hell from the pulpit is pure fiction. > > If you want to know what the “core beliefs” of any church or Christian organization is, read their Statement of Faith or Doctrinal Statement or whatever they call it; nearly all of them have one. Check this out. Nearly every Southern Baptist church I googled links directly to this: [http://www.fsbcdc.org/](http://www.fsbcdc.org/) > [@](#): > > In keeping with the commandment to love one another, First Southern reaches out to homosexuals but strongly opposes the homosexual lifestyle and the gay agenda. It believes that homosexuality is a choice, not a pre-determined genetic predisposition. Everyone has the propensity to all kinds of sins, including homosexuality, but it is our belief that living in sin is strictly a matter of choice. I don’t know how else to read it. It comes up under the “What We Believe” tab. Pretty cut and dried. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-church-doing-to-change-public-perception/339017/27 "2006-01-09T00:10:05Z")
My view is that we are all sinners, that’s one reason people go to church. This also goes for homosexuals. The core message of Christ is we can be cleansed of our sins if we chose. I can fully understand and agree with the point that churches of Christ (following conventional interpertations) should not perform same sex ‘marriages’, but should not close it’s doors either to such a couple. It should welcome them as fellow sinners who wish to have their sins cleansed by the blood of Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-church-doing-to-change-public-perception/339017/28 "2006-01-09T00:26:57Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > My view is that we are all sinners, that’s one reason people go to church. This also goes for homosexuals. The core message of Christ is we can be cleansed of our sins if we chose. > > I can fully understand and agree with the point that churches of Christ (following conventional interpertations) should not perform same sex ‘marriages’, but should not close it’s doors either to such a couple. It should welcome them as fellow sinners who wish to have their sins cleansed by the blood of Christ. Just a little less equal…slightly less loveable, right? You can hang out with us, but you’re still gonna burn in hell for making “bad” choices. My eyes are rolling like a mutherfuck. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-church-doing-to-change-public-perception/339017/29 "2006-01-09T00:42:05Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Check this out. Nearly every Southern Baptist church I googled links directly to this: [http://www.fsbcdc.org/](http://www.fsbcdc.org/) They all link to First Baptist of Del City, Oklahoma??? None of these mention it: [First Babtist OK City](http://www.fbcokc.org/Believe.asp) [FB Atlanta](http://www.fba.org/aboutfba/statement_of_faith.html)[FB Nashville](http://www.firstbaptistnashville.org/about/what-we-believe/) [FB Mobile](http://www.fbcmobile.com/statements.html) [FB Richmond](http://www.fbcrichmond.org/spiritual/ten.htm) [FB San Antonio](http://www.fbcsa.org/mission.htm) FB Dallas and Houston link to the [The Baptist Faith and Message](http://www.utm.edu/martinarea/fbc/bfm/), which is non-binding, but does represent the general consensus of Southern Baptists; homosexuality is mentioned in one sentence in the current version, and not mentioned at all in the pre-2000 versions. That mention may upset you, but I think its rather a stretch to say that rejection of homosexuality is a “core belief.” ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-church-doing-to-change-public-perception/339017/30 "2006-01-09T00:45:32Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Just a little less equal…slightly less loveable, right? Why are you so eager to be offended? She said nothing of the sort. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-church-doing-to-change-public-perception/339017/31 "2006-01-09T00:46:16Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Just a little less equal…slightly less loveable, right? You can hang out with us, but you’re still gonna burn in hell for making “bad” choices. My eyes are rolling like a mutherfuck. Um, **kanicbird** said nothing of the sort. He didn’t say they’d burn in hell; he said they’d be welcome as fellow sinners. In other words, as equal, sinning human beings. That we all sin by nature is one of the more basic and universal Christian beliefs. My own (Episcopal) Church is as gay-affirming and welcoming as they come, and yet we don’t have gay weddings. Believe it or not, there can be a great deal of subtlety and a wide variety of opinions on the topic _and they can all exist in a loving and supportive atmosphere_. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-church-doing-to-change-public-perception/339017/32 "2006-01-09T00:52:02Z")
> [@furt](#): > > They all link to First Baptist of Del City, Oklahoma??? > > None of these mention it: > [First Babtist OK City](http://www.fbcokc.org/Believe.asp) > [FB Atlanta](http://www.fba.org/aboutfba/statement_of_faith.html)[FB Nashville](http://www.firstbaptistnashville.org/about/what-we-believe/) > [FB Mobile](http://www.fbcmobile.com/statements.html) > [FB Richmond](http://www.fbcrichmond.org/spiritual/ten.htm) > [FB San Antonio](http://www.fbcsa.org/mission.htm) > > FB Dallas and Houston link to the [The Baptist Faith and Message](http://www.utm.edu/martinarea/fbc/bfm/), which is non-binding, but does represent the general consensus of Southern Baptists; homosexuality is mentioned in one sentence in the current version, and not mentioned at all in the pre-2000 versions. That mention may upset you, but I think its rather a stretch to say that rejection of homosexuality is a “core belief.” The sites you link to are Baptist; not _Southern_ Baptist. Huge difference, as has been pointed out to me and acknowledged. I should clarify that the link I posted is originally from the SBC site. That’s where most of them link to. As far as core beliefs go, they say it’s what they believe. Not what some members believe. What the ORGANIZATION believes. They want you to know that the guys in charge think that way. “We Believe” is a very strong statement – not just an underlying tone. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-church-doing-to-change-public-perception/339017/33 "2006-01-09T00:56:41Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > [url=Kalhoun]Just a little less equal…slightly less loveable, right? You can hang out with us, but you’re still gonna burn in hell for making “bad” choices. My eyes are rolling like a mutherfuck. Um, **kanicbird** said nothing of the sort. He didn’t say they’d burn in hell; he said they’d be welcome as fellow sinners. In other words, as equal, sinning human beings. That we all sin by nature is one of the more basic and universal Christian beliefs. My own (Episcopal) Church is as gay-affirming and welcoming as they come, and yet we don’t have gay weddings. Believe it or not, there can be a great deal of subtlety and a wide variety of opinions on the topic _and they can all exist in a loving and supportive atmosphere_. [/QUOTE] I wasn’t directing that to Kanicbird, but to the church mindset that says you are less-than-saveable if you engage in homosexual sex. Homosexual sinners CAN’T cleanse their souls without denying who they are. They CAN’T have loving family lives like everyone else and still be full-fledged members of the church. A church either treats everyone equally or they don’t. It’s pretty simple to me. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-church-doing-to-change-public-perception/339017/34 "2006-01-09T01:02:48Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I wasn’t directing that to Kanicbird, but to the church mindset that says you are less-than-saveable if you engage in homosexual sex. Which churches hold this mindset? I think even churches that are against homosexual behaviour typically believe that those who practice it can receive Christ’s salvation. > [@Kalhoun](#): > > Homosexual sinners CAN’T cleanse their souls without denying who they are. Huh? This doesn’t make any sense to me. > [@Kalhoun](#): > > A church either treats everyone equally or they don’t. Is it your belief that homosexuals can only be treated equally if they’re married? > [@Kalhoun](#): > > It’s pretty simple to me. Unfortunately, religion isn’t a pretty simple topic. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-church-doing-to-change-public-perception/339017/35 "2006-01-09T01:14:56Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > A church either treats everyone equally or they don’t. It’s pretty simple to me. That is what we try to do at my gay church. We marry heterosexual couples, we baptize their babies, we welcome them to church membership, we allow everyone to take communion. I honestly think we try to make everyone feel comfortable. We’re far from perfect. But, we try. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-church-doing-to-change-public-perception/339017/36 "2006-01-09T01:23:39Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Which churches hold this mindset? I think even churches that are against homosexual behaviour typically believe that those who practice it can receive Christ’s salvation. [http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/pssexuality.asp](http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/pssexuality.asp) This is the SBC’s statement on the topic. > [@](#): > > Sexuality > We affirm God’s plan for marriage and sexual intimacy – one man, and one woman, for life. Homosexuality is not a “valid alternative lifestyle.” The Bible condemns it as sin. It is not, however, unforgivable sin. The same redemption available to all sinners is available to homosexuals. They, too, may become new creations in Christ. and from [ReligiousTolerance.org](http://ReligiousTolerance.org): [http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom\_sbc.htm](http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_sbc.htm) > [@](#): > > SBC Position on Sexual Orientation > The SBC’s Christian Life Commission publishes a pamphlet called Critical Issues: Homosexuality. It states that: > > The many Bible passages that are commonly quoted as condemning homosexuality are valid > People can change their sexual orientation > Homosexual orientation is not “caused” by hormonal imbalance or genetic factors, but by an unhealthy relationship with one’s parents > People cannot be pigeonholed into two classifications: homosexual or heterosexual. A continuum exists which includes various degrees of bisexuality > Although homosexuality is a sin, it is not the unpardonable sin, or the most terrible of sins. > \*\*Homosexuals can only lead moral lives by remaining celibate \*\* \*\*Discrimination against gays and lesbians is proper, in the areas of: employment > to protect the (presumably heterosexual) “family” \*\* to protect other social institutions > > Rev. William Merrell, the SBC’s vice president for convention relations said in 1997-MAR: “It is a fundamental contradiction, to say ‘gay minister,’…The teachings of scripture are plain; that one is called to live a life that is in keeping with the principles the Lord has given us. Homosexuality is a fundamental denial of those principles.” Within the SBC, Merrell said members always have affirmed the same position: \*\*homosexuality is a sin, homosexual ministers should be removed and gay and lesbian people must renounce the lifestyle if they want to be members. \*\* > > (Bolding mine) > [@](#): > > Huh? This doesn’t make any sense to me. > > Is it your belief that homosexuals can only be treated equally if they’re married? > > Unfortunately, religion isn’t a pretty simple topic. You’re right. Religion is complicated. Equality is very simple. They either let all their members marry in the eyes of god or they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-church-doing-to-change-public-perception/339017/37 "2006-01-09T01:23:45Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > As far as core beliefs go, they say it’s what they believe. Not what some members believe. What the ORGANIZATION believes. They want you to know that the guys in charge think that way. “We Believe” is a very strong statement – not just an underlying tone. Since the various Baptist churches are more complicated than some other denominations, why not pick one that’s fairly easy? The RCC is against homosexual acts and now is going so far as to ban those with homosexual leanings from entering the priesthood. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-church-doing-to-change-public-perception/339017/38 "2006-01-09T01:26:58Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > That is what we try to do at my gay church. We marry heterosexual couples, we baptize their babies, we welcome them to church membership, we allow everyone to take communion. I honestly think we try to make everyone feel comfortable. > > We’re far from perfect. But, we try. Ah, but if only the rest of 'em would follow suit. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-church-doing-to-change-public-perception/339017/39 "2006-01-09T01:29:33Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Since the various Baptist churches are more complicated than some other denominations, why not pick one that’s fairly easy? The RCC is against homosexual acts and now is going so far as to ban those with homosexual leanings from entering the priesthood. I agree. I dislike them just as much as the SBC. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-church-doing-to-change-public-perception/339017/40 "2006-01-09T01:31:26Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > [http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/pssexuality.asp](http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/pssexuality.asp) > This is the SBC’s statement on the topic. You do realize that that statement contradicted what you were saying, right? It specifically said that homosexual sex acts were not unforgiveable. > [@](#): > > You’re right. Religion is complicated. Equality is very simple. They either let all their members marry in the eyes of god or they don’t. Perhaps this is where we fundamentally differ. I don’t think equality is simple; I think it’s very complicated and its implications even more so. Can you explain what you mean by “equality” above? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-church-doing-to-change-public-perception/339017.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-church-doing-to-change-public-perception/339017.md?page=3)