# What is your country’s “Vimy Ridge”? (Greatest or worst battle) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 24, 2021, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-country-s-vimy-ridge-greatest-or-worst-battle/949409 "2021-08-24T01:57:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2021, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-country-s-vimy-ridge-greatest-or-worst-battle/949409/61 "2021-09-01T07:12:01Z")
For older generations in the UK, a great victory was the Heights of Abraham/Quebec - complete with the deaths of the generals on either side. Compare and contrast, as they say, with Trafalgar and the death of Nelson. I’m wondering if the salience of Agincourt is more to do with the Olivier film of _Henry V_, and its parallels with the invasion of Normandy at the time. For military disasters pre-WW1, obviously the Charge of the Light Brigade (come to think of it, the Crimean War itself). Or, in the Boer War, Spion Kop. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2021, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-country-s-vimy-ridge-greatest-or-worst-battle/949409/62 "2021-09-01T07:25:43Z")
According to Caddick-Adams Sand and Steel more men died in the training and preparation leading up to DDay than the actual invasion itself. Most of the earlier deaths were covered up and kept top secret for decades. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2021, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-country-s-vimy-ridge-greatest-or-worst-battle/949409/63 "2021-09-01T08:44:57Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > Honourable mention goes to Dunkirk. Dunkirk, and Arnhem. We British do like to remember our defeats. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2021, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-country-s-vimy-ridge-greatest-or-worst-battle/949409/64 "2021-09-01T09:59:49Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > I’m wondering if the salience of Agincourt is more to do with the Olivier film of _Henry V_ , and its parallels with the invasion of Normandy at the time. To people of a certain mindset, Agincourt couldn’t have been a great battle because of the relatively small number of Englishman who died. Greatness comes from sacrifice, so by not dying they obviously weren’t fighting hard enough. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2021, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-country-s-vimy-ridge-greatest-or-worst-battle/949409/65 "2021-09-01T10:13:28Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Greatness comes from sacrifice, And of the enemy too. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2021, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-country-s-vimy-ridge-greatest-or-worst-battle/949409/66 "2021-09-01T12:12:14Z")
_It is a long-cherished tradition among a certain type of military thinker that huge casualties are the main thing. If they are on the other side then this is a valuable bonus._ Terry Pratchett, _Jingo_. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2021, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-country-s-vimy-ridge-greatest-or-worst-battle/949409/67 "2021-09-01T15:23:45Z")
> [@eburacum45](#): > > Dunkirk, and Arnhem. We British do like to remember our defeats. Dunkirk wasn’t a defeat at all. The Battle of France was a defeat; Dunkirk was a huge win. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2021, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-country-s-vimy-ridge-greatest-or-worst-battle/949409/68 "2021-09-01T15:56:06Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Dunkirk wasn’t a defeat at all. The Battle of France was a defeat; Dunkirk was a huge win. Spike Milligan’s War Diaries, Vol 1 “Adolf Hitler, My Part In His Downfall”: After Dunkirk, a new sergeant is posted to Spike’s artillery regiment. Turns out the new sarge had been at Dunkirk. Spike asks him what it was like. > What was it like, son? It was a fuckup. A highly successful fuckup ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2021, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-country-s-vimy-ridge-greatest-or-worst-battle/949409/69 "2021-09-01T19:14:13Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > _It is a long-cherished tradition among a certain type of military thinker that huge casualties are the main thing. If they are on the other side then this is a valuable bonus._ > > Terry Pratchett, _Jingo_. Jeez, can’t people stop picking on Douglas Haig? (also Erich von Falkenhayn) ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2022, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-country-s-vimy-ridge-greatest-or-worst-battle/949409/70 "2022-04-09T22:47:25Z")
Canada remembers the sacrifices today that were made at Vimy Ridge 105 years ago. May we seek to always increase our understanding and may we seek to never forget. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/9KUSl4-GKwQ/maxresdefault.jpg "When The Tigers Broke Free") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KUSl4-GKwQ) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2022, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-country-s-vimy-ridge-greatest-or-worst-battle/949409/71 "2022-04-09T23:03:08Z")
Posted this earlier today in the “Today in History” thread; will re-post here: [https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/c/ca\_vimy2.jpg](https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/c/ca_vimy2.jpg) This is the “Vimy Flag” - probably the oldest surviving Canadian flag, used by troops of the Canadian Corps at Vimy Ridge. After long negotiations, now on semi-permanent loan by the Imperial War Museum to the Canadian War Museum. During the four day battle, 3,598 dead and 7,004 wounded amongst the Canadians and British; unknown German casualties; 4,000 captured. God rest their souls. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2022, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-country-s-vimy-ridge-greatest-or-worst-battle/949409/72 "2022-04-10T04:16:18Z")
Canada entered WW1 as an English colony, who automatically declared war since Britain did, and ended it feeling more independent. Vimy was a hard fought victory which taught Canada their volunteers could fight as well as anyone. The battle itself was only of moderate significance. But the lessons taught led to much more independence, international respect, an awakened nationalism, and social changes like industrialization and increasing roles and rights for women, who helped in the new factories and who supported Canada’s hundreds of thousands of volunteers (before 1917 conscription). ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2022, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-country-s-vimy-ridge-greatest-or-worst-battle/949409/73 "2022-04-10T04:35:08Z")
I’m surprised no one has yet mentioned the Battle of the Plains of Abraham in the context of Canada: > **[Battle of the Plains of Abraham | The Canadian Encyclopedia](https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/battle-of-the-plains-of-abraham)** > > The Battle of the Plains of Abraham (13 September 1759), also known as the Battle of Quebec, was a pivotal moment in the Seven Years’ War and in the history o... The British victory in this battle was a crucial moment in history that, along with other events in the Seven Years’ War, resulted in Canada becoming a British colony instead of a French one, in which English language and culture became dominant. Today, an independent Canada still has strong associations with Britain and the Commonwealth, and is officially bilingual, with Quebec recognized as a distinct society. The majority of Canada outside Quebec is primarily English-speaking, however, while the majority of Quebec – especially outside Montreal – is primarily French. Most Montrealers, in my experience, are amazingly bilingual. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2022, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-country-s-vimy-ridge-greatest-or-worst-battle/949409/74 "2022-04-10T05:21:01Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > Canada entered WW1 as an English colony, who automatically declared war since Britain did, and ended it feeling more independent. > > . . . > > Vimy was a hard fought victory which taught Canada their volunteers could fight as well as anyone. The battle itself was only of moderate significance. But the lessons taught led to much more independence, international respect, an awakened nationalism. Nitpick: at the time of WWI, Canada was not a British colony; it was a self-governing dominion, the term used then for a former colony that could control its own internal affairs. The UK looked after Canada’s foreign affairs, but that power would wither away shortly, and Canada’s signing of the Treaty of Versailles was an important point in taking that power away from the UK. But you are correct on your second point. Canada signed the Treaty of Versailles separately from the UK, because we had earned that international respect. Canada’s self-determination was sealed with the _Treaty of Westminster_ 1931, which made Canada _de facto_ independent of the UK in all ways. Canada went on to establish embassies and consulates abroad, although Canada had established its own diplomatic mission in Washington DC as early as 1927. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2022, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-country-s-vimy-ridge-greatest-or-worst-battle/949409/75 "2022-04-10T13:43:10Z")
You are correct. I was being glib in saying why we automatically went to war, though self-governing. However, the SDMB requires a higher degree of accuracy, so I thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2022, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-country-s-vimy-ridge-greatest-or-worst-battle/949409/76 "2022-04-10T14:02:57Z")
I would suspect that for the Zulu people, it would be the Battle of Isandlwana during the Anglo-Zulu war, when 20,000 warriors primarily armed with assegai spears, attacked an 1800 man coalition armed with modern rifles, mountain guns and field guns and defeated them. In that same war was the Battle of Rorke’s Drift, in which 150 British and colonial troops held off 4,000 Zulu warriors through repeated attacks. It inspired the movie **Zulu**. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2022, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-country-s-vimy-ridge-greatest-or-worst-battle/949409/77 "2022-04-10T14:35:45Z")
Speaking of costly victories, we had the 160th anniversary of the Battle of Shiloh (Civil War) several days ago. Union casualties roughly equaled Canadian losses at Vimy Ridge. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2022, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-country-s-vimy-ridge-greatest-or-worst-battle/949409/78 "2022-04-10T18:53:45Z")
I have been re-reading a book about _Field Hospitals_, of obvious relevance to natural disasters including Covid, as well as man-made conflicts. The history of military and mobile hospitals is interesting. Though everyone knows Florence Nightingale, I confess with sadness and surprise I had never heard of Jonathan Letterman, an American who revolutionized the field during the American Civil War. Did Americans learn more about him than us Canadians? Because he prevented many Union casualties through innovation still relevant today. > **[Jonathan Letterman](https://www.battlefields.org/learn/biographies/jonathan-letterman)** ---
**Author:** ![FrenchDunadan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frenchdunadan/32/5449_2.png) [@FrenchDunadan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrenchDunadan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2022, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-country-s-vimy-ridge-greatest-or-worst-battle/949409/79 "2022-04-12T20:46:38Z")
On the plus side : Verdun On the downside: waterloo ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2022, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-country-s-vimy-ridge-greatest-or-worst-battle/949409/80 "2022-04-13T13:50:42Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > The British victory in this battle was a crucial moment in history that, along with other events in the Seven Years’ War, resulted in Canada becoming a British colony instead of a French one, in which English language and culture became dominant. Today, an independent Canada still has strong associations with Britain and the Commonwealth, and is officially bilingual, with Quebec recognized as a distinct society. If you’re going to name the GREATEST British victory, though, I’d think a few would rank ahead of Quebec City. Certainly the most impactful was, I guess, Hastings. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-country-s-vimy-ridge-greatest-or-worst-battle/949409.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-country-s-vimy-ridge-greatest-or-worst-battle/949409.md?page=5)