# What is your ongoing opinion of the Affordable Care Act? (Title Edited) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 17, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561 "2013-01-17T23:21:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 108
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2142 "2014-04-21T22:25:18Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > People lost their insurance and their doctors. That’s a failure. LOL. So, basically, every policy ever by anyone has been a failure. Because no policy has ever been perfect. Keep fucking that chicken, **adaher**. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2143 "2014-04-22T01:55:16Z")
And, lo, it came to pass that a disembodied hand appeared and wrote on the palace wall the words, “_Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin_”. Which means, in the ancient tongue “It’s your ass now, motherfucker!” Belshazzar did not know the ancient language but was sorely perflexed, and called upon **adaher** , the Wise, to interpret the words. “Forsooth” saith **adaher** the Wise "the words, oh King of Kings, say ‘Verily, thou art the tits, Belshazzar. And the Lord of Hosts totally loves your ass, ain’t nothing but blue skies and sunshine ahead!’ " ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2144 "2014-04-22T05:18:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > LOL. So, basically, every policy ever by anyone has been a failure. Because no policy has ever been perfect. > > Keep fucking that chicken, **adaher**. Policies should be judged on the promises used to sell them. When you buy a car, do you not expect it to perform as advertised? If your promised great fuel efficiency, great reliability, and second to none safety, your going to call the car a good purchase just because it runs? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2145 "2014-04-22T08:57:12Z")
Ah, no. It may be a consideration in judging the character of the policy maker, but the policy is good or it isn’t. As in your woefully misplaced example, even if invading Iraq were a fiscally sound investment, gotten at a substantial discount at Death 'R Us, it would _still_ have been one of the most disastrous policies in American history. You analysis is worse than amoral, it is stupid as well. Being pissed at GeeDubya because he was wrong about the potential for recouping our expenses is like criticizing Jeffrey Dahmer for poor hygiene and health code violations. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2146 "2014-04-22T09:07:21Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Policies should be judged on the promises used to sell them. When you buy a car, do you not expect it to perform as advertised? If your promised great fuel efficiency, great reliability, and second to none safety, your going to call the car a good purchase just because it runs? No. Policies are judged by how they affect people and the nation. Does anyone remember what the promises were for social security? Medicare? The GI Bill? What matters is how people’s lives are changed. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2147 "2014-04-22T14:50:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No. Policies are judged by how they affect people and the nation. Does anyone remember what the promises were for social security? Medicare? The GI Bill? What matters is how people’s lives are changed. The ends justify the means. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2148 "2014-04-22T15:22:00Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The ends justify the means. No, but whether a policy is a success or not depends on how it affects people. The “means” is a different issue. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2149 "2014-04-22T15:23:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, but whether a policy is a success or not depends on how it affects people. The “means” is a different issue. You say “no” but your previous post says “yes”. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2150 "2014-04-22T16:10:19Z")
A more accurate term might be “sausage factory”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2151 "2014-04-22T16:20:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You say “no” but your previous post says “yes”. Incorrect. Your reading comprehension needs work. I’d be happy to provide assistance – could you parse the words that I wrote that you think means “the ends justify the means”? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2152 "2014-04-22T16:33:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No. Policies are judged by how they affect people and the nation. Does anyone remember what the promises were for social security? Medicare? The GI Bill? What matters is how people’s lives are changed. I’ll concede that you’re partly right, but you’re partly wrong too. This law was a highly contentious law that a small majority of the public wasn’t buying. The only thing that made it politically viable at all was the promise that no one would be hurt by it. If the President had told the truth from the beginning, the law would never have passed. The way the public will judge a law, especially when the promises are young enough to be remembered, is by what the President said it would do. It’s not doing it. It’s actually doing the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2153 "2014-04-22T16:45:07Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’ll concede that you’re partly right, but you’re partly wrong too. This law was a highly contentious law that a small majority of the public wasn’t buying. The only thing that made it politically viable at all was the promise that no one would be hurt by it. If the President had told the truth from the beginning, the law would never have passed. I contest the factual accuracy of this statement, but I’ll accept the philosophical point. Feel free to judge the actions and statements the President made in the leadup to passing the law. It’s perfectly fine to criticize such statements and actions. I don’t believe such criticism has any bearing on the law now, but it certainly may have relevance towards judging those who passed the law. > [@](#): > > The way the public will judge a law, especially when the promises are young enough to be remembered, is by what the President said it would do. It’s not doing it. It’s actually doing the opposite. Wrong, and very obviously wrong! How does the public judge Social Security, or Medicare, or the GI Bill? I doubt even 1% of the public even has the slightest idea of what promises were made! Perhaps in the immediate years after those bills, they were judged alongside the statements and actions of the lawmakers who passed it. But after a few years, much less decades of the law in effect? Then the law is judged by what it does. This isn’t hard. Judge the President, and the legislators, and judge statements and actions. But judge the law based on what the law does. The ACA could be a wild success (though it’s far too early to tell), but if it was passed through immoral acts (which I don’t believe that it was), then its passage was immoral. And even if its passage was immoral, that doesn’t make the law immoral. Twisting arms, giving bribes, and threatening violence to force state legislators to outlaw pedophilia? Those are immoral things to do. But the resulting law that outlaws pedophilia? Still a good law. The ends didn’t justify the means, but we shouldn’t necessarily toss out the “ends” once the “means” have been done. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2154 "2014-04-22T16:52:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I contest the factual accuracy of this statement, but I’ll accept the philosophical point. Feel free to judge the actions and statements the President made in the leadup to passing the law. It’s perfectly fine to criticize such statements and actions. I don’t believe such criticism has any bearing on the law now, but it certainly may have relevance towards judging those who passed the law. From a politics perspective, a law is going to be judged by what the public was told to expect from it, at least as long as the public remembers. Sure, 20 years from now it might not matter. No one remembers that Medicare was sold based on rosy cost estimates or that SS was sold on a low introductory tax rate that everyone who could do simple math would know wasn’t going to last. But those problems appeared way down the road, and by then the public liked Medicare and Social Security. ACA is facing the same problem the Catastrophic Care act of 1987 faces: the costs are immediate. Remember what happened to the latter law? First entitlement ever repealed, and nearly unanimously. > [@](#): > > Wrong, and very obviously wrong! How does the public judge Social Security, or Medicare, or the GI Bill? I doubt even 1% of the public even has the slightest idea of what promises were made! Perhaps in the immediate years after those bills, they were judged alongside the statements and actions of the lawmakers who passed it. But after a few years, much less decades of the law in effect? Then the law is judged by what it does. What I said in the statement you are responding to is that as long as the promises are recent enough to be remembered, the law will be judged based on them. There’s a reason the law hasn’t become more popular despite 12 million newly insured. [http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obama\_and\_democrats\_health\_care\_plan-1130.html](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obama_and_democrats_health_care_plan-1130.html) The people that have health insurance outnumber those who don’t by a huge margin. It’s an even wider margin when you account for the fact that people with health insurance probably vote in much larger numbers. The law will primarily be judged by people who already have health insurance and how the law is affecting them. and they were promised it wouldn’t affect them in the slightest except to make their insurance better. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2155 "2014-04-22T17:13:13Z")
Anybody want to cite the numbers of people who are “against/oppose” ACA because it doesn’t go far _enough_? I would, but its like trying to batter down a brick wall with a Nerf bat. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2156 "2014-04-22T17:16:17Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The people that have health insurance outnumber those who don’t by a huge margin. It’s an even wider margin when you account for the fact that people with health insurance probably vote in much larger numbers. The law will primarily be judged by people who already have health insurance and how the law is affecting them. and they were promised it wouldn’t affect them in the slightest except to make their insurance better. What I see then is that most agree that overall that promise is still there. > **[Americans Remain Negative Toward Healthcare Law](https://news.gallup.com/poll/168491/americans-remain-negative-healthcare-law.aspx)** > > Americans remain more negative than positive toward the Affordable Care Act on various measures, including 43% approval and 54% disapproval of the law itself. A clear majority (64%) say the law has not directly affected them. > [@](#): > > Most Americans, 64%, say their own healthcare situation has so far not been affected by the provisions of the ACA law already in effect. This percentage has declined only slightly from 70% in February 2012 even as more of the law has since been implemented. And as CNN noted, there is the issue that unpopularity does not equal support for repeal, far from it, what it is found is that the way to go forward for many is not to repeal it but to modify it. [http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2014/03/31/five-things-polling-tells-us-about-obamacare/](http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2014/03/31/five-things-polling-tells-us-about-obamacare/) > [@](#): > > 1. Unpopularity doesn’t equal support for repeal: Just as most national polling indicates that more people disapprove than approve of Obamacare, the surveys also are clear that more people want to keep rather than scrap the Affordable Care Act. > > Nearly six in ten in the Kaiser study said Congress should work to improve the measure or keep it the way it currently stands. Just under three in ten advocated repealing the law or replacing it with a Republican-backed plan. > > A majority of the 53% in the Pew poll who said they disapprove of the law still said they wanted to make the measure work. Just over half of those questioned in a Bloomberg national poll said Obamacare may need small modifications, but "we should see how it works.” Thirteen percent said the law should be left alone, while just over a third advocated repealing the law. > > And according to the CNN poll, 39% said they opposed the law because it is too liberal, but 12% said they opposed it because it’s not liberal enough. That means roughly half the public either favor Obamacare or want something that goes even further. > [@elucidator](#): > > Anybody want to cite the numbers of people who are “against/oppose” ACA because it doesn’t go far _enough_? I would, but its like trying to batter down a brick wall with a Nerf bat. “It’s Nerf or Nothing!”… I mean, there it is, it was nothing really. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2157 "2014-04-22T17:18:17Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > From a politics perspective, a law is going to be judged by what the public was told to expect from it, at least as long as the public remembers. Sure, 20 years from now it might not matter. No one remembers that Medicare was sold based on rosy cost estimates or that SS was sold on a low introductory tax rate that everyone who could do simple math would know wasn’t going to last. But those problems appeared way down the road, and by then the public liked Medicare and Social Security. ACA is facing the same problem the Catastrophic Care act of 1987 faces: the costs are immediate. Remember what happened to the latter law? First entitlement ever repealed, and nearly unanimously. The ACA has not been repealed, and it’s not likely to be repealed before 2017. The effects of it are only starting. The public is not clamoring for its repeal, despite the right-wing infotainment drumbeat. In fact, a majority opposes repealing the ACA. In light of these facts, it’s just silly and pointless to declare failure (or success) now. I still support the law because, based on the statistics as I understand them, it is helping far, far more people than it is hurting. Your insistence on calling it a failure is purely sour grapes (as you’ve pretty much admitted), and has nothing to do with what the law actually does. > [@](#): > > What I said in the statement you are responding to is that as long as the promises are recent enough to be remembered, the law will be judged based on them. There’s a reason the law hasn’t become more popular despite 12 million newly insured. A majority opposes repeal. There’s no point in judging the law now, because it’s barely taken effect. Does anyone remember what the pundits (or the equivalent) said about Medicare during the year after it took affect? Would anyone care even if they did remember? > [@](#): > > The people that have health insurance outnumber those who don’t by a huge margin. It’s an even wider margin when you account for the fact that people with health insurance probably vote in much larger numbers. The law will primarily be judged by people who already have health insurance and how the law is affecting them. and they were promised it wouldn’t affect them in the slightest except to make their insurance better. For the vast majority of Americans, that promise is valid (from the statistics as I understand them), for their individual circumstances. If you’re right, then those promises are a net positive for the vast majority of Americans. But I don’t think you’re right. I think most of the public, who opposes repealing the law, actually wants to _wait a few years and see how it really affects health care in the USA_. That seems like a reasonable outlook. Yours is unreasonable. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2158 "2014-04-22T17:29:07Z")
Isn’t there something we can do, given all of our influence and power, to see **adaher** appointed Supreme Decider of Republican Party policy? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2159 "2014-04-22T17:46:08Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > …I mean, there it is, it was nothing really. 🙂 Hey, I could have done that! But I’m busy discussing the perfection of Daenerys Targaryen’s butt with **Vinny** and **Bricker**! Priorities, man, priorities! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2160 "2014-04-22T17:47:32Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Isn’t there something we can do, given all of our influence and power, to see **adaher** appointed Supreme Decider of Republican Party policy? He has my vote! ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2161 "2014-04-22T17:47:49Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Isn’t there something we can do, given all of our influence and power, to see **adaher** appointed Supreme Decider of Republican Party policy? The latest votes and pronouncements made by the current Deciders shows that \*\*adaher \*\* is not needed by them. His powers of disturbing the time continuum and then changing the future and the past to the opposite of what he pronounces are needed here. 😉 😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561.md?page=107) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561.md?page=109)