# What is your ongoing opinion of the Affordable Care Act? (Title Edited) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 17, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561 "2013-01-17T23:21:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 110
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2182 "2014-04-22T21:36:52Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Taking away people’s ACA insurance is going to be less costly than messing around with the insurance people already have. I’m sure you have statistics for what percentage of insured people noticed any negative impact to their coverage due to Obamacare. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2183 "2014-04-22T21:43:52Z")
I do not. The election will tell us about that one. As Scott Rasmussen pointed out, the administration’s numbers don’t tell us much either. It’s like saying the score of the baseball game is eight. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2184 "2014-04-22T21:57:14Z")
I’d believe him if I were you, **Fear. adaher** has a well-established record of performance on poll interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2185 "2014-04-22T22:02:29Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > There’s only one path to single payer, dude: repeal and replace. Yet another thing that’s been explained to you, with more patience than warranted, enough times for you to get it. _We already have a single-payer system_. It’s called Medicare. It works extremely efficiently. The path to making it available to everyone is to make it available to everyone. You still have never answered, btw, the question about why you’d want to repeal and \*then immediately reinstate \*the bulk of Obamacare, instead of simply repealing the parts you say most Americans are opposed to (you haven’t said what they are, either). So what’s the reason for your hammering on “repeal”? Is the thing you really want to repeal simply Obama’s getting credit for it? All you have to do about that is discuss how it’s a Heritage Foundation proposal that Governor Romney had the courage to implement and show the rest of the country. Why not just do that? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2186 "2014-04-22T22:05:03Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yet another thing that’s been explained to you, with more patience than warranted, enough times for you to get it. _We already have a single-payer system_. It’s called Medicare. It works extremely efficiently. The path to making it available to everyone is to make it available to everyone. So all you want is a public option? That’s not quite the same thing. > [@](#): > > You still have never answered, btw, the question about why you’d want to repeal and \*then immediately reinstate \*the bulk of Obamacare, instead of simply repealing the parts you say most Americans are opposed to (you haven’t said what they are, either). So what’s the reason for your hammering on “repeal”? Is the thing you really want to repeal simply Obama’s getting credit for it? All you have to do about that is discuss how it’s a Heritage Foundation proposal that Governor Romney had the courage to implement and show the rest of the country. Why not just do that? The Heritage Foundation plan is not exactly the same as ACA. And Democrats will howl if the Republicans try to pass it. Which will of course prove them to be liars, but we already knew that. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2187 "2014-04-22T22:05:18Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yet another thing that’s been explained to you, with more patience than warranted, enough times for you to get it. _We already have a single-payer system_. It’s called Medicare. It works extremely efficiently. That’s a constantly repeated falsehood. In “admin dollars spent per patient” it is less efficient (not by a lot, but still) than private insurance. It only comes out ahead as a percentage because Medicare spends so much more per patient than private insurance. See [http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f259/bigbadterr/admincosts1.gif](http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f259/bigbadterr/admincosts1.gif) ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2188 "2014-04-22T22:07:04Z")
Yeah, Medicare is only efficient if you don’t count fraud. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2189 "2014-04-22T22:11:38Z")
Three percent overhead, _including_ fraud. When did you stop even trying? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2190 "2014-04-22T22:13:48Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Three percent overhead, _including_ fraud. > > When did you stop even trying? Again, [http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f259/bigbadterr/admincosts1.gif](http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f259/bigbadterr/admincosts1.gif) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2191 "2014-04-22T22:14:52Z")
Terr, did you know Medicare right now covers \*only \*the elderly and disabled? People who, before Obamacare, could be routinely stiffed by private insurance? Well, now that you know, how about reconsidering your statement? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2192 "2014-04-22T22:15:45Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Terr, did you know Medicare right now covers \*only \*the elderly and disabled? People who, before Obamacare, could be routinely stiffed by private insurance? > > Well, now that you know, how about reconsidering your statement? You claim that Medicare is much more efficient. It isn’t. Its administrative costs, per patient, are higher than private insurances’. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2193 "2014-04-22T22:16:18Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Three percent overhead, _including_ fraud. > > When did you stop even trying? False. [http://www.medicarenewsgroup.com/news/medicare-faqs/individual-faq?faqId=6a130489-e387-476d-a358-c77cfba68367](http://www.medicarenewsgroup.com/news/medicare-faqs/individual-faq?faqId=6a130489-e387-476d-a358-c77cfba68367) It’s 3-10%, depending on the estimates. It’s telling that Medicare neither knows for sure nor seems interested in finding out. Makes it easy to claim you’re more efficient when you don’t spend money finding out how much money you’re losing. Really, Elvis, the trash talk is so unnecessary and it just makes you look doubly foolish. You didn’t even try, or spend a second to think about how stupid the idea that Medicare fraud could be only 3% WITH administrative costs. Such a figure could only come from a single-payer advocacy site. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2194 "2014-04-22T22:18:58Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > So all you want is a public option? That’s not quite the same thing. It would keep the partisan hyenas from howling about socialism. But yes, if you like private insurance, you could keep it. Except you probably wouldn’t want to. > [@](#): > > The Heritage Foundation plan is not exactly the same as ACA. I’m trying to offer you a way out of the political well you’ve dived into. If you’d rather stay down there, you certainly can. Gonna answer the why-repeal question or not, hombre? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2195 "2014-04-22T22:20:31Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > False. > > [http://www.medicarenewsgroup.com/news/medicare-faqs/individual-faq?faqId=6a130489-e387-476d-a358-c77cfba68367](http://www.medicarenewsgroup.com/news/medicare-faqs/individual-faq?faqId=6a130489-e387-476d-a358-c77cfba68367) You’re seriously offering that bunch of partisan talking points as an objective cite? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2196 "2014-04-22T22:22:41Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It would keep the partisan hyenas from howling about socialism. But yes, if you like private insurance, you could keep it. Except you probably wouldn’t want to. The devil is in the details. If you are paying for it anyway, you probably would just take the Medicare. But if you’re talking about people buying in and paying full freight, then some would choose Medicare, but those with access to the better plans would stick with those. YOu won’t see unions flocking to give up their gold plated plans. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2197 "2014-04-22T22:23:57Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You’re seriously offering that bunch of partisan talking points as an objective cite? 😃 There is not a single cite you can provide that would show Medicare fraud at 2% or less. It’s a laughable assertion. The OMB says nearly 10%: > **[Medicare fraud](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_fraud)** > > In the United States, Medicare fraud is the claiming of Medicare health care reimbursement to which the claimant is not entitled. There are many different types of Medicare fraud, all of which have the same goal: to collect money from the Medicare program illegitimately. > The total amount of Medicare fraud is difficult to track, because not all fraud is detected and not all suspicious claims turn out to be fraudulent. According to the Office of Management and Budget, Medicare "improper payments" ... Find me a source better than that and we’ll talk. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2198 "2014-04-22T22:45:19Z")
Care to provide any numbers from anywhere about fraud and inefficiency in the private sector? Your claim is that it’s less; so show us how you know. [Here’s a cite](http://www.pnhp.org/news/2013/february/setting-the-record-straight-on-medicare%E2%80%99s-overhead-costs) with some very different numbers than yours about Medicare costs. Anyway, if private industry can operate more effectively and efficiently than that on a level playing field, let 'em try, obviously. Meanwhile, I’ll keep on being amused by your contortions - a few posts ago, you were denying that a single-payer system is even possible. 😃 Oh, and you can expect to keep getting asked about why you want to repeal and reinstate so much of ACA, what you wouldn’t reinstate and why, and what you’d replace it with. Take some time to think about it, all you need. Your party’s leaders still haven’t even started on that, so I do take some pity on you for that, but only some. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2199 "2014-04-22T22:56:40Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Care to provide any numbers from anywhere about fraud and inefficiency in the private sector? Your claim is that it’s less; so show us how you know. Hard to compare, because part of what you call “overhead” is private insurance companies aggressively detecting fraud. Whereas Medicare relies more on the honor system. > [@](#): > > Anyway, if private industry can operate more effectively and efficiently than that on a level playing field, let 'em try, obviously. Meanwhile, I’ll keep on being amused by your contortions - a few posts ago, you were denying that a single-payer system is even possible. 😃 If you’re referring to something like NHS or Canada’s Medicare, where government is the sole payer for basic health insurance, then yes, it’s impossible. If you’re referring merely to a public option, where every citizen can choose to pay in or not pay in, then that’s not single payer. There’s a difference between having self-contained single payer systems and UHC single payer. The US has the VA, Medicare, and Medicaid. Three single payer systems=multipayer. If private insurance is permitted to compete with Medicare, then it’s as multi-payer as it gets. And again, the devil is in the details. Democrats are quite capable of installing single payer through deception: allow people to keep their insurance, but they’ll be paying for Medicare whether they take it or not. That’s not a level playing field. > [@](#): > > Oh, and you can expect to keep getting asked about why you want to repeal and reinstate so much of ACA, what you wouldn’t reinstate and why, and what you’d replace it with. Take some time to think about it, all you need. Your party’s leaders still haven’t even started on that, so I do take some pity on you for that, but only some. They do have to coalesce around an alternative. IMO, the Coburn-Hatch-Burr plan is just fine. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2200 "2014-04-22T23:56:57Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Hard to compare IOW, your claim is based on nothing factual at all. > [@](#): > > because part of what you call “overhead” is private insurance companies aggressively detecting fraud. Whereas Medicare relies more on the honor system. IOW, so you’ll make something up instead. Don’t you ever get tired of that game? > [@](#): > > If you’re referring to something like NHS or Canada’s Medicare, where government is the sole payer for basic health insurance, then yes, it’s impossible. Only because of the Children’s Party’s reflexive opposition, born of their sponsorship in the insurance industry and others. Please. > [@](#): > > If you’re referring merely to a public option, where every citizen can choose to pay in or not pay in, then that’s not single payer. Not at first, but eventually, when the private companies’ profit motive and executive-bonuses motive and advertising and schmoozing and Senator-buying motives drive them into uncompetitiveness and irrelevance. You do see that happening, don’t you? > [@](#): > > Democrats are quite capable of installing single payer through deception: allow people to keep their insurance, but they’ll be paying for Medicare whether they take it or not. Take a good look at your next paystub (if you get one). Tell us what you see under the Deductions column. 😉 > [@](#): > > They do have to coalesce around an alternative. IMO, the Coburn-Hatch-Burr plan is just fine. IOW, you’ll be in favor of anything the Republicans ever come up with (and it’s not a good bet that they will, btw), _even though you have no clue what it is!_ Just the name Republican on it is all you need to be happy. Well, maybe you’ll find out what’s in it after it passes, right? 😉 Let’s take that as the answer to why you want to repeal the Democratic law and immediately reinstate pretty much all of it with a Republican name on it. Maybe someday you’ll realize how pathetic a proposal that is. Or maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/2201 "2014-04-23T00:09:34Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Not at first, but eventually, when the private companies’ profit motive and executive-bonuses motive and advertising and schmoozing and Senator-buying motives drive them into uncompetitiveness and irrelevance. You do see that happening, don’t you? > > . Hasn’t happened in any other multi-payer system. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561.md?page=109) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561.md?page=111)