# What is your ongoing opinion of the Affordable Care Act? (Title Edited) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 17, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561 "2013-01-17T23:21:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 157
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3122 "2014-11-11T02:21:07Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I welcome actual examples of Adaher’s _thousands of years of history showing us how awesome minimal government is_. Somewhere above Somalia, I guess. That’s good to know. I only need one: the United States of America. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3123 "2014-11-11T02:35:52Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I welcome actual examples of Adaher’s _thousands of years of history showing us how awesome minimal government is_. Somewhere above Somalia, I guess. That’s good to know. Just about every war, mass persecution, mass murder, and mass violence from the near distant past onwards has been organised,endorsed and sanctioned by the State; by some top down authority. Very little human on human tragedy has been at the hands of minimal or hands off governments. Most occur when States overreach, clamp down on some poor bastards, some movement, some religion, some percieved threat or challenge both real and imagined. These range from The Reformation, the Counter Reformation, authoritarian Monarchy, Cromwellian Purtanism, Jacobians, Bonapartism, anti Bonapartism, Slavery, the Scramble for Africa, the Crimean War, the Boer War, the Spanish American War, pre WWI Nationalism, pre WWI Empire, WWI, the Russian Revolution, Stalinism, Fascism, Naziism, WW2, post colonialism, the Berlin Wall, the crushing of the Hungarian uprising, Mao’ism, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the Iran/Iraq War, Gulf War I and Gulf War 2. Just a few examples of non minimal government inflicting immense misery and cruelty. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3124 "2014-11-11T04:05:32Z")
Back to health care, Dr. Gruber says some unhelpful stuff again: > **[Obamacare Architect: Lack of Transparency Was Key Because ‘Stupidity Of The...](https://dailycaller.com/2014/11/09/obamacare-architect-lack-of-transparency-was-key-because-stupidity-of-the-american-voter-would-have-killed-obamacare/)** > > Obama consultant reveals how the administration used lack of transparency to its advantage > [@](#): > > Obamacare architect Jonathan Gruber said that lack of transparency was a major part of getting Obamacare passed because “the stupidity of the American voter” would have killed the law if more people knew what was in it. > [@](#): > > This bill was written in a tortured way to make sure CBO did not score the mandate as taxes. If CBO scored the mandate as taxes, the bill dies. Okay, so it’s written to do that. In terms of risk rated subsidies, if you had a law which said that healthy people are going to pay in – you made explicit healthy people pay in and sick people get money, it would not have passed… Lack of transparency is a huge political advantage. And basically, call it the stupidity of the American voter or whatever, but basically that was really really critical for the thing to pass… Look, I wish Mark was right that we could make it all transparent, but I’d rather have this law than not.” ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3125 "2014-11-11T12:44:09Z")
But is he _wrong_, or just too uncomfortably honest for you? ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3126 "2014-11-11T13:26:00Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > But is he _wrong_, or just too uncomfortably honest for you? That’s not for us too say. It’s simply a worthwhile exercise to post the clip and let others make up their own mind. The most interesting thing in the clip imo is not his comment describing voter stupidity but his statement that transparency is bad. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3127 "2014-11-11T14:29:20Z")
_Of course_ it’s for us to say. Where the hell do you think you are? Gruber’s statement about transparency is an inevitable consequent of his statement about stupidity. You can’t deplore it acontextually. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3128 "2014-11-11T14:41:06Z")
Gruber, like many elites, prefers rule by elites rather than rule by the people. Too bad Congressmen are also not elites, and thank goodness for ACA that they didn’t read it either. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3129 "2014-11-11T15:08:18Z")
If by “elites” you mean “smart, competent people”, then what’s your beef? If you’re persisting with this “didn’t read it” shit, then here’s a hint: You’re one of the people he’s referring to. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3130 "2014-11-11T15:25:12Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > _Of course_ it’s for us to say. Where the hell do you think you are? > > Gruber’s statement about transparency is an inevitable consequent of his statement about stupidity. You can’t deplore it acontextually. Eh? I can deplore it any way I wish. I can jump to almost any conclusion about taxation, government, or Obamacare that I want to from his statement. The conclusion I come to is that in regards to funding Obamacare politicians and bureaucrats believe transparency is bad. I also tentatively conclude that less transparency in government finance is the goal of many in Washington. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3131 "2014-11-11T15:42:30Z")
And you know why, too. “Death panels”. “They didn’t let anyone read it”. For a couple of examples. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3132 "2014-11-11T16:07:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > If by “elites” you mean “smart, competent people”, then what’s your beef? > . First, are we a people who rule a government, or a government that rules a people? Secondly, elites are often smart, but competence is a trait that tends to be unrelated to brains and social status. That lesson should have been well learned after the “Best and Brightest” debacle of the 1960s. I’d much rather have the government run by career Army NCOs than Harvard grads. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3133 "2014-11-11T16:07:40Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And you know why, too. > > “Death panels”. > “They didn’t let anyone read it”. > > For a couple of examples. Just you keep changing the subject like a good apologist. We have it from the horses mouth, transparency is bad for Obamacare financing. If transparency is bad for Obamacare it’s likely bad for a whole host of Government bills, programmes and legislation. I make no more claims about Gruber’s statement than _that_. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3134 "2014-11-11T16:15:06Z")
The reason transparency is a problem is not only the electorate’s stupidity. It’s the _catering_ to that stupidity by a major party willing to tell them any lie it takes to protect the interests of their \*true \*constituencies. Sadly, any effort to make things better for people has to take into account the openings left for it to be lied about. That’s Gruber’s point, and he’s right. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3135 "2014-11-11T16:21:05Z")
Gruber is 100% right if your goal is to do what you think is good for the people against their will. I just don’t see that as a proper role of government. Nor do I think that experts necessarily know what’s good for the people better than the people themselves. Besides, such a concept goes against the very principles our nation was founded upon. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3136 "2014-11-11T16:27:52Z")
“Against their will” is an interesting concept if that will is the result of being consistently and heavily lied to, isn’t it? So is “knowing what’s good for them”. “The principles our nation was founded upon” don’t include lying to the people, but that’s what your guys have been doing anyway, isn’t it? Do please note the polls that show each of the major features of Obamacare showed strong public support anyway, but only the package that had the name of the Socialist Kenyan Muslim on it ever had negative support. Do also please note that _you yourself_ vociferously support fully repealing it and then reinstating it virtually intact except without his name on it. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3137 "2014-11-11T16:33:40Z")
How much public support does the part where you lose your health insurance have? The individual mandate? The highest taxes and fees? The Medicare Advantage “savings”? You can make any policy look like it’s popular if you cherry pick the good parts and ignore the downsides. If I was a pollster I could make free trade look like the most popular policy ever. ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3138 "2014-11-11T16:56:23Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > How much public support does the part where you lose your health insurance have? Does anyone have any numbers on how many people lost their insurance, and why? I haven’t heard much about it, other than as a talking point, since that first wave of reports that were mostly found out to be either untrue or decisions by the insurance companies that were unrelated to the ACA. As to the mandate and the taxes, are you really surprised that Americans want benefits but they don’t want to pay for them? Hell, that’s the American way! ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3139 "2014-11-11T19:12:07Z")
A realize that. But you can’t poll the good stuff without also polling the tradeoffs Sure, Americans want everyone covered. But how much are they willing to pay for that? Americans want better insurance and more protections. How much are they willing to pay for that? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3140 "2014-11-11T19:19:55Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > A realize that. But you can’t poll the good stuff without also polling the tradeoffs Sure, Americans want everyone covered. But how much are they willing to pay for that? Americans want better insurance and more protections. How much are they willing to pay for that? Are insurance prices going up as fast as before? Also, how many people lost their insurance and didn’t get other insurance to make up for it? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3141 "2014-11-11T19:21:36Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I only need one: the United States of America. So the thousands of years of evidence you said you had wasn’t intended as a factual statement? Also, since you’re basing your assertion on only one data point, the economy did very will under the Clinton tax rates. We should go back to that then, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561.md?page=156) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561.md?page=158)