# What is your ongoing opinion of the Affordable Care Act? (Title Edited) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 17, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561 "2013-01-17T23:21:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 191
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3802 "2016-01-11T17:39:43Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Of course not. But we could make it so that all plans are grandfathered unconditionally. Who could possibly object to that? Insurance companies would object. For me it is like this: We want everyone to be able to buy insurance without regard for pre-existing conditions. But then people won’t buy insurance until they are sick. Then we will require everyone to buy insurance. But people will buy insurance policies that are worthless to check the box and still buy the policies with coverage when they get sick. Then we will define minimum standards for coverage. You can debate the details of that or reject the whole thing but you can’t say “get ride of just this one part…” The most legitimate objection I’ve heard is in being forced to buy something you don’t want. I could support an opt out with an ID system that would allow all health care providers to refuse to treat you, even with lost of life a possiblity. The previous system required they get paid and then the cost was passed on - forcing the rest of us to pay for something we didn’t want - someone else’s coverage. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3803 "2016-01-11T17:56:36Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > You brought this up as support for your allegation that the ACA was “founded on a lie.” As I said earlier, barring time travel or backwards causality, that’s demonstrably untrue. A lie in 2013 can’t affect the founding of a law passed and signed in 2009-2010. But he was saying it in '09 and '10 before he kept saying it in '12 and '13. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3804 "2016-01-11T18:00:09Z")
> [@](#): > > …an ID system that would allow all health care providers to refuse to treat you, even with lost of life a possiblity… I couldn’t do it. If it were my job to sign off on refusing treatment to some asshole who is gaming the system, with lethal consequence or even just pain and suffering…I couldn’t do it. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3805 "2016-01-11T18:41:22Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > But he was saying it in '09 and '10 before he kept saying it in '12 and '13. IIRC, it was _true_ at that time - the problem was, he shouldn’t have been saying it in 2013, because it wasn’t still true _then_. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3806 "2016-01-11T19:23:34Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > IIRC, it was _true_ at that time - the problem was, he shouldn’t have been saying it in 2013, because it wasn’t still true _then_. Let me see if I have this straight: If he knows _before_ the bill passes that some plans can’t be grandfathered in, then you’d say he was a liar back then – and if he kept saying it after it passes, it’s something that’s not true and “he shouldn’t have been saying it”. But if he only knew _after_ passage, then (a) he made a promise without being able to keep it, which doesn’t much bother you; and (b) the “he shouldn’t have been saying it” part, the part that prompted your “so freakin’ what??”, is all there is. So it all comes down to: did he know, _before_ passage of the bill, that some plans couldn’t be grandfathered in? Well, it’s your IIRC; do you have a cite for that IIRC? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3807 "2016-01-11T21:24:59Z")
And this is the sad little reality of their tiny minds. Black+Democrat+“lied” = the law is invalid. If it was their own guy, they’d defend the legislation to and past the gates of Hell. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3808 "2016-01-11T21:49:15Z")
I’m pretty sure all plans were grandfathered in. Subsequently insurance companies made changes to some of those grandfathered plans to a degree which caused them to lose grandfathered status. The people who liked their plans and couldn’t keep them lost their plans because the insurance companies were no longer offering them the plans they liked. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3809 "2016-01-11T22:14:16Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > I’m pretty sure all plans were grandfathered in. Subsequently insurance companies made changes to some of those grandfathered plans to a degree which caused them to lose grandfathered status. > > The people who liked their plans and couldn’t keep them lost their plans because the insurance companies were no longer offering them the plans they liked. Nope. See post 3781. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3810 "2016-01-11T22:15:42Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > And this is the sad little reality of their tiny minds. > > Black+Democrat+“lied” = the law is invalid. > > If it was their own guy, they’d defend the legislation to and past the gates of Hell. “If it was their own guy,” you say. What makes you think I didn’t vote for Obama? ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3811 "2016-01-11T22:33:09Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Nope. See post 3781. I’m not seeing it. There seem to be some additional requirements (primarily reporting) that apply to all plans including grandfathered plans, but all plans were grandfathered as far as I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3812 "2016-01-11T22:58:09Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > I’m not seeing it. There seem to be some additional requirements (primarily reporting) that apply to all plans including grandfathered plans, but all plans were grandfathered as far as I can tell. There’s a link – provided by one of the posters _defending_ Obama – that spells out how “Grandfathered plans aren’t exempt from all of ObamaCare’s new rules.” It then of course lists a number of requirements other than reporting: it’s all _fees_ this, and _waiting period_ that, and stuff about rescissions and dollar limits and dependent child coverage and so on. What aren’t you seeing? ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3813 "2016-01-11T23:18:46Z")
I am reading the list. I’m seeing that there are rules that all plans must follow including grandfathered plans. I’m not seeing where plans were not automatically grandfathered. Can you quote the part that makes you think my interpretation is incorrect? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3814 "2016-01-12T00:09:07Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > I am reading the list. I’m seeing that there are rules that all plans must follow including grandfathered plans. > > I’m not seeing where plans were not automatically grandfathered. > > Can you quote the part that makes you think my interpretation is incorrect? Well, let me see if I’m following you, here: imagine someone says _if you like your plan, you can keep it_; and imagine I say _great, because I like my plan, and so will keep it_; and imagine he says _well, no, see, your plan would first have to change in this way and that way and another way_; and imagine I say, _hold on a second_; and imagine he says _don’t interrupt; I wasn’t finished; your plan would also have to change in another way, and another other way, and another other way_; and imagine I say _but I wanted to keep my plan_; and imagine he says _ha ha HA ha_. If you think that’s what “if you like your plan, you can keep it” means, then, no, I’m not sure I can quote a part that would make your interpretation incorrect; I’d just say your interpretation already seems incorrect even before I quote anything else. (Do you use that reasoning in any other context? Imagine you worked for a boss who asked if you wanted to renegotiate your contract – _or, if you like your current job, you can keep it; your salary and duties and benefits, you can keep them, too_.) (And imagine you and he signed right where it spelled out that latter option.) (And imagine you showed up for work on Monday to find your salary was cut in half, and your duties had doubled, and suddenly you don’t get dental benefits any more, and you have a different job title and a different job description – but, hey, _other than it being a different job with a different salary and duties and benefits,_ it’s still the same job with the same salary and duties and benefits. How do you react?) ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3815 "2016-01-12T00:23:35Z")
But these aren’t changes to the plan. They are rules that insurance companies have to follow and they have to follow them even in cases where the plan in question is grandfathered. e.g. The insurance company has to chip in to fund PCORI for each plan it sells. Even grandfathered plans. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3816 "2016-01-12T00:48:08Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > But these aren’t changes to the plan. They are rules that insurance companies have to follow and they have to follow them even in cases where the plan in question is grandfathered. But you’re saying if I liked my plan and wanted to keep it, and my insurance company _also_ liked that plan and was _likewise_ perfectly willing to keep offering it, a guy said _if you like your plan, you can keep it,_ and then – made it so I couldn’t. If the plan I liked can no longer be offered by my insurance company, then – what? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3817 "2016-01-12T15:09:06Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Let me see if I have this straight: > > If he knows _before_ the bill passes that some plans can’t be grandfathered in, then you’d say he was a liar back then – and if he kept saying it after it passes, it’s something that’s not true and “he shouldn’t have been saying it”. > > But if he only knew _after_ passage, then (a) he made a promise without being able to keep it, which doesn’t much bother you; and (b) the “he shouldn’t have been saying it” part, the part that prompted your “so freakin’ what??”, is all there is. > > So it all comes down to: did he know, _before_ passage of the bill, that some plans couldn’t be grandfathered in? Well, it’s your IIRC; do you have a cite for that IIRC? No, but this business was widely discussed when he started back in with the “if you like your plan, you can keep it” bit back in 2013. Anyway, let’s suppose this: 1. All plans that people had _at the time the ACA was passed_ could be grandfathered in if they wished. 2. That didn’t mean you could sign up for plans _after the ACA was passed_, and be able to keep your new plan as long as you wanted. Under those circumstances, Obama would have been telling the truth in 2009, but not in 2013. But his getting it wrong in 2013 didn’t affect the bill’s passage, period. At any rate, if someone’s going to claim he was lying _back in 2009_, I think it’s up to that person to provide a cite. \*Or close enough for government work. I’m aware that there are minor aspects of the law, e.g. the Cadillac tax, that still haven’t taken effect. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3818 "2016-01-12T15:25:07Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > No, but this business was widely discussed when he started back in with the “if you like your plan, you can keep it” bit back in 2013. > > Anyway, let’s suppose this: > > 1. All plans that people had _at the time the ACA was passed_ could be grandfathered in if they wished. > 2. That didn’t mean you could sign up for plans _after the ACA was passed_, and be able to keep your new plan as long as you wanted. > > Under those circumstances, Obama would have been telling the truth in 2009, but not in 2013. But – as per the previous posts on this very page – even the ‘grandfathered’ plans weren’t exempt from a whole bunch of requirements; if you liked your plan, and wanted to keep it, and your insurance company was perfectly happy to keep offering it, the bill that became a law _simply didn’t allow that._ > [@](#): > > At any rate, if someone’s going to claim he was lying _back in 2009_, I think it’s up to that person to provide a cite. Well, look, if we grant that the aforementioned bill which back then became the aforementioned law aforementionedly _doesn’t_ exempt ‘grandfathered’ plans from a whole bunch o’ requirements, then I’d figure the thing speaks for itself… ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3819 "2016-01-12T15:34:30Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > But – as per the previous posts on this very page – Which posts on this page? I’ve skimmed 'em all, and I don’t see anything. Please quote or link. > [@](#): > > Well, look, if we grant that the aforementioned bill which back then became the aforementioned law aforementionedly _doesn’t_ exempt ‘grandfathered’ plans from a whole bunch o’ requirements, then I’d figure the thing speaks for itself… Well, I still need to see your substantiation here, per my comment above. But the other thing is to substantiate that Obama was saying ‘if you like your plan, you can keep it’ back in 2009. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3820 "2016-01-12T16:05:23Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > If the plan I liked can no longer be offered by my insurance company, then – what? There is no such plan. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3821 "2016-01-12T16:08:28Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Which posts on this page? I’ve skimmed 'em all, and I don’t see anything. Please quote or link. **Cabbage** posted [this](http://obamacarefacts.com/grandfathered-plans/) link, which includes spelling out a whole list of ways in which _“Grandfathered plans aren’t exempt from all of ObamaCare’s new rules.”_ So if that was the bill that became the law… > [@](#): > > Well, I still need to see your substantiation here, per my comment above. But the other thing is to substantiate that Obama was saying ‘if you like your plan, you can keep it’ back in 2009. …well, how about [this link,](http://www.politifact.com/obama-like-health-care-keep/) to Politifact’s Lie Of The Year, complete with timeline? Plenty of quotes from him in '09. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561.md?page=190) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561.md?page=192)