# What is your ongoing opinion of the Affordable Care Act? (Title Edited) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 17, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561 "2013-01-17T23:21:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 197
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3922 "2016-09-08T07:35:48Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > We’d never tolerate waiting lists. Even a single payer system would have to be funded generously enough so that waiting more than a couple of weeks to see a doctor was rare. (a) haven’t you got to have cover to be on a waiting list? (b) you’re missing the point somewhat of single-player systems and (c) you don’t seem to have more than a parochial understanding of US healthcare. Middle class entitlement much? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3923 "2016-09-08T07:56:24Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Bullshit. > > To continue my rebuttal, 47.6% said they hadn’t looked, not that they had stopped looking, and that was the largest reason cited, by double digits, which makes it the main reason. The [study cited](http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/82-625-x/2014001/article/14013-eng.htm) says “Among those who had looked for a doctor, 37.6% said that doctors in their area were not taking new patients,” but it also says that only 0.1% of people without a regular doctor didn’t know where to go — 80.6% said they had a regular _place_ to go, taking whatever doctor was available, and 19.3% used ad hoc resources, “such as appointment clinics, doctors’ offices, hospital out-patient clinics and telephone health lines.” Which is what people without insurance in the US do. Now granted, not having to pay at the point of service is nice, but the goal of health care delivery systems is not just to be “free”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3924 "2016-09-08T09:02:33Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Which is what people without insurance in the US do. Now granted, not having to pay at the point of service is nice, but the goal of health care delivery systems is not just to be “free”. You’re ignoring your bullshit claim that wasn’t supported by your cite. Your cite didn’t say, in any way, that millions of Canadians couldn’t get a doctor. You make mistakes like this so often that you should be ashamed, and it would be so easy to avoid. I wish you would put more effort into making sure you were saying accurate things. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3925 "2016-09-08T09:11:43Z")
They do not have a family doctor. In the US, we call that no primary care. I guess it’s different in Canada because single payer. Single payer solves all problems, even when it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3926 "2016-09-08T09:14:08Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > They do not have a family doctor. In the US, we call that no primary care. I guess it’s different in Canada because single payer. Single payer solves all problems, even when it doesn’t. Then why didn’t you say that before? Why did you make a totally bullshit claim, when it is so easy to be accurate? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3927 "2016-09-08T09:16:01Z")
> [@](#): > > The report notes that improvement in reducing wait times has been modest and is often lacking, and concerns Canadians. Only 31 to 46 per cent of Canadians, depending on the province, could get an appointment the same day or the next day, not including emergency department visits. > > Since patients who don’t have a primary care provider go to the emergency department, the two waits are related, Dobrow said > **[Canadians wait longest among 11 OECD countries to see their doctors | CBC News](https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canadian-patients-wait-longest-to-see-family-doctors-1.2501468)** > > Canada ranks last among 11 OECD countries in a new survey in terms of how quickly people can get in to see their regular family physicians, showing "where a person lives does matter," says the Health Council of Canada. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3928 "2016-09-08T09:25:57Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > [Canadian patients wait longest to see family doctors | CBC News](http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canadian-patients-wait-longest-to-see-family-doctors-1.2501468) Then why didn’t you make this claim? Why did you make such an easy-to-avoid false claim? “Can’t get an appointment today or tomorrow” is incredibly different from “can’t see a doctor at all”. Do you get that? I think you’re a great sparring partner sometimes. But sometimes you’re just terribly lazy. It’s so easy to avoid mistakes like this, and for some reason you just refuse to put in the little bit of effort to do so, sometimes. I get upset because I know you’re capable of avoiding this, but you just don’t even try sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3929 "2016-09-08T09:53:35Z")
You’re using a double standard. In the US, you may see a doctor when you go to an ER or clinic, but critics of US health care would never call that “access to a doctor”. You go to the ER for health care precisely because you don’t have access to a doctor. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3930 "2016-09-08T09:55:53Z")
I’d also note that lack of access to a doctor is based on income. If you have $100 for an appointment, you’ll see a doctor, and very soon in most areas. In Canada, as with any socialized good or service, supply is a problem. Americans will never tolerate this, which is why even a single payer system in the US would be pricey. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3931 "2016-09-08T09:56:09Z")
Seeing a doctor is not access to a doctor. Srsly? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3932 "2016-09-08T10:09:38Z")
Okay, so that means that in the US, 100% of Americans have access to a doctor. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3933 "2016-09-08T10:30:04Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > You’re using a double standard. In the US, you may see a doctor when you go to an ER or clinic, but critics of US health care would never call that “access to a doctor”. You go to the ER for health care precisely because you don’t have access to a doctor. By your cite, you’re saying that the biggest problem in Canadian health care is that some people have to wait more than a day or two for an appointment. There’s no problem paying, just sometimes a wait of at least two days. Imagine if that was the biggest problem with US health care - no problems paying for anyone, but ten percent or so have to wait two days for their appointments. We’d be ecstatic. Obama would be on Mount Rushmore. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3934 "2016-09-08T10:31:43Z")
And thus your “can’t see a doctor at all” claim is total bullshit. No problem paying and a two day wait is very, very different. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3935 "2016-09-08T10:38:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > By your cite, you’re saying that the biggest problem in Canadian health care is that some people have to wait more than a day or two for an appointment. There’s no problem paying, just sometimes a wait of at least two days. > > Imagine if that was the biggest problem with US health care - no problems paying for anyone, but ten percent or so have to wait two days for their appointments. > > We’d be ecstatic. Obama would be on Mount Rushmore. Now who is spreading nonsense? “At least two days”? That’s some artful language there, a great example of something being technically true while giving an incredibly false impression. Canadian wait times are quite significant. Since this thread isn’t about Canada, I’m only using them as an illustration that Americans will want better access than what other single payer countries give. We will insist on seeing a doctor as quickly as we do now, of getting hip and knee replacements as quickly as we do now, and getting PET scans or MRIs as quickly as we do now when a doctor requests them. That’s going to cost a lot of money. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3936 "2016-09-08T10:42:14Z")
How quickly do the uninsured have access to those things? There are, at least, far fewer of them now. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3937 "2016-09-08T10:46:48Z")
Uninsured have immediate access to doctors through the ER and clinics. Just like in Canada. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3938 "2016-09-08T11:00:51Z")
There \*are \*no uninsured Canadians. And what US ER’s do knee and hip replacements, since you brought them up? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3939 "2016-09-08T11:08:43Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Now who is spreading nonsense? “At least two days”? That’s some artful language there, a great example of something being technically true while giving an incredibly false impression. > > Canadian wait times are quite significant. Since this thread isn’t about Canada, I’m only using them as an illustration that Americans will want better access than what other single payer countries give. We will insist on seeing a doctor as quickly as we do now, of getting hip and knee replacements as quickly as we do now, and getting PET scans or MRIs as quickly as we do now when a doctor requests them. That’s going to cost a lot of money. At least two days is what your own cite said. And it’s still very different from “can’t see a doctor at all”. Why can’t you just admit that you were incorrect when you said that? Why do you have to double down on such an obvious falsity? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3940 "2016-09-08T11:27:57Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > There \*are \*no uninsured Canadians. Ah, that old argument: 1. Single payer fixes everything 2. If something is not fixed, refer to #1 > [@](#): > > And what US ER’s do knee and hip replacements, since you brought them up? None, but Americans dont’ wait six months. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3941 "2016-09-08T11:39:16Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Ah, that old argument: > > 1. Single payer fixes everything > 2. If something is not fixed, refer to #1 No, it’s simply a fact. You said that there were uninsured Canadians, and you were factually incorrect. He didn’t say single payer fixes everything. Can’t you just own this occasionally? You get things wrong and are called out on it. Why not just admit it? It’s false that millions of Canadians “can’t see a doctor”. You said this, and you were wrong. It’s false that there are uninsured Canadians. You said this and you were wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561.md?page=196) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561.md?page=198)