# What is your ongoing opinion of the Affordable Care Act? (Title Edited) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 17, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561 "2013-01-17T23:21:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 198
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3942 "2016-09-08T11:45:08Z")
Technically, it’s true that “millions of Canadians can’t see a doctor”. I can’t see one right now either. I mean, I’d actually have to go to my doctor’s office to see her and that’s _miles_ from here. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3943 "2016-09-08T11:45:55Z")
I did not say there were uninsured Canadians. Only that uninsured Americans have just as much access to care as Canadians who have to use the ER as their primary medical provider. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3944 "2016-09-08T11:56:15Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I did not say there were uninsured Canadians. Only that uninsured Americans have just as much access to care as Canadians who have to use the ER as their primary medical provider. Bullshit: > [@adaher](#): > > Uninsured have immediate access to doctors through the ER and clinics. Just like in Canada. You said this, and you said that millions of Canadians “can’t see a doctor at all”. You said two false things. Why not just admit that you read the cite wrong and had a brain fart? There’s a reasonable discussion to be had, and I wish you put in the effort to actually make it. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3945 "2016-09-08T12:06:38Z")
Let’s agree on terms here. If you agree that all Americans have access to a doctor, then sure, what I said was wrong. All Americans(uninsured or insured) can see a doctor, and all Canadians(whether they have a primary care doctor or not) can see one. In the ER or a clinic. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3946 "2016-09-08T12:16:11Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Let’s agree on terms here. If you agree that all Americans have access to a doctor, then sure, what I said was wrong. All Americans(uninsured or insured) can see a doctor, and all Canadians(whether they have a primary care doctor or not) can see one. In the ER or a clinic. I won’t agree on that, because it’s missing a huge part of the issue. It’s entirely different when there’s no issue of payment – in Canada, the only possible problem is an issue of delay (at least a few days for some, according to your cite). There’s no problem of payment. In the US it’s entirely different – some people literally don’t have the resources to see and pay for a doctor’s care, no matter when the doctor can see them. That’s very, very different. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3947 "2016-09-08T12:19:59Z")
They still get to see the doctor, they just get a bill afterwards which won’t be paid. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3948 "2016-09-08T12:34:30Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > They still get to see the doctor, they just get a bill afterwards which won’t be paid. Many doctors will not see patients without proof of insurance or pre-payment. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3949 "2016-09-08T12:37:18Z")
That’s private practice doctors. Hospitals are a different story. Plus I’m failing to see how “I have to go to the ER because I have no money” is worse than “I have to go to the ER even though I have money”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3950 "2016-09-08T12:53:38Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That’s private practice doctors. Hospitals are a different story. Private hospitals can turn patients away in a non-emergency, and we’re explicitly talking about non-emergency care. > [@](#): > > Plus I’m failing to see how “I have to go to the ER because I have no money” is worse than “I have to go to the ER even though I have money”. That’s not the difference – the difference is whether, in a non-emergency, especially for routine care, people are able to see a doctor. In Canada, the answer is always “yes”, even if they might have to wait. In the US, the answer is “no” if one doesn’t have insurance or the resources. In Canada, if someone doesn’t see a doctor for years, then the only reason will be that they don’t like doctors or didn’t want to – they’d always be able to make an annual appointment if they wanted to, even if they have to wait at least a few days. In the US this is absolutely not true – there are lots of people who would like to see a general practitioner once a year or more, but are unable to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3951 "2016-09-08T12:59:35Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Plus I’m failing to see how “I have to go to the ER because I have no money” is worse than “I have to go to the ER even though I have money”. Your inability to comprehend the difference is not an indictment of the Canadian health system. Incidentally, I use a single-provider system (NHS). I can’t recall the last time I didn’t get in to see a GP the same day I called. I’ve also used the out-of-hours non-emergency helpline (NHS Direct and suchlike) and out-of-hours non-emergency urgent care clinics (both of which involved a few hours’ wait), as well as emergency and non-emergency hospital services. The only time I had to wait any significant time was for an elective surgical procedure (for a deviated septum) due to a spike in emergency cases on the day tying up the surgeries, requiring my procedure to be rescheduled. And nowadays I also have private insurance, which means I could jump the queue and get something like that treated in a private medical facility. Short version: your assumptions about “socialized healthcare” are inaccurate. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3952 "2016-09-08T13:17:38Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Uninsured have immediate access to doctors through the ER and clinics. Just like in Canada. More bullshit. I don’t think I’ve ever lived in a city with a free clinic, and I’ve lived in several states. I know they exist, but they are effectively inaccessible to most of the people who need them. As for ERs, you cannot just go in and see a doctor. You are evaluated, typically by a nurse, and if you don’t have a bona fide emergency where your survival depends on immediate treatment, they are not required to treat you. If you do have an emergency, they are required only to remedy it to the point where the crisis is abated, and a regular doctor can take over (if you can’t afford a regular doctor, you’re SOL). And they will charge you thousands of dollars. My mom recently went into the ER because she was having trouble breathing. They gave her an IV. Seven thousand bucks (mostly covered by insurance — thanks, Obama). If you suspect you have cancer, an ER will do nothing for you. If you actually do have cancer, an ER will do nothing for you unless you are in such a late stage that your organs are shutting down – or, at their discretion, unless you have excellent insurance. It is a bullshit right-wing myth that people can use the ER as if it were a free clinic. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3953 "2016-09-08T13:21:30Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Your inability to comprehend the difference is not an indictment of the Canadian health system. > > Incidentally, I use a single-provider system (NHS). I can’t recall the last time I didn’t get in to see a GP the same day I called. I’ve also used the out-of-hours non-emergency helpline (NHS Direct and suchlike) and out-of-hours non-emergency urgent care clinics (both of which involved a few hours’ wait), as well as emergency and non-emergency hospital services. The only time I had to wait any significant time was for an elective surgical procedure (for a deviated septum) due to a spike in emergency cases on the day tying up the surgeries, requiring my procedure to be rescheduled. And nowadays I also have private insurance, which means I could jump the queue and get something like that treated in a private medical facility. > > Short version: your assumptions about “socialized healthcare” are inaccurate. Because of your lone experience? Please. The stats speak for themselves. The Brits get what they pay for. Americans are going to want more. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3954 "2016-09-08T13:26:38Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > None, but Americans dont’ wait six months. How long do they wait? ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3955 "2016-09-08T13:33:25Z")
Thanks to the “affordable” care act, it is now commonplace for employer-sponsored plans to have multi-thousand-dollar deductibles before insurance (with co-pays) kicks in. So how is this better than those shitty “catastrophic” plans the act was supposed to eliminate??? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3956 "2016-09-08T13:35:39Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Thanks to the “affordable” care act, it is now commonplace for employer-sponsored plans to have multi-thousand-dollar deductibles before insurance (with co-pays) kicks in. How is the fact that employers are cheap bastards the fault of Obamacare? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3957 "2016-09-08T13:35:53Z")
Unfortunately, the US doesn’t measure that like Canada and Britain do, but studies have been done: > [@](#): > > bout 80 percent of the questionnaires were returned, but not all the respondents answered all the questions. The rate of response to specific questions was about 60 to 65 percent in both countries. The median waiting time for an initial orthopedic consultation was two weeks in the United States and four weeks in Ontario. [http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199410203311607](http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199410203311607) This article does some good analysis on wait times in the US vs elsewhere: [http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/06/sunday-review/long-waits-for-doctors-appointments-have-become-the-norm.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/06/sunday-review/long-waits-for-doctors-appointments-have-become-the-norm.html) > [@](#): > > Americans are more likely to wait for office-based medical appointments that are not good sources of revenue for hospitals and doctors. In other countries, people tend to wait longest for expensive elective care — four to six months for a knee replacement and over a month for follow-up radiation therapy after cancer surgery in Canada, for example. > > In our market-based system, patients can get lucrative procedures rapidly, even when there is no urgent medical need: Need a new knee, or an M.R.I., or a Botox injection? You’ll probably be on the schedule within days. But what if you’re an asthmatic whose breathing is deteriorating, or a diabetic whose medicines need adjustment, or an elderly patient who has unusual chest pain and needs a cardiology consultation? In much of the country, you can wait a week or weeks for such office appointments — or longer if you need to find a doctor who accepts your insurance plan or Medicare. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3958 "2016-09-08T13:40:58Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Unfortunately, the US doesn’t measure that like Canada and Britain do, but studies have been done: > > [http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199410203311607](http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199410203311607) > > This article does some good analysis on wait times in the US vs elsewhere: > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/06/sunday-review/long-waits-for-doctors-appointments-have-become-the-norm.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/06/sunday-review/long-waits-for-doctors-appointments-have-become-the-norm.html) So you’re just ignoring the false things you said earlier? I keep expecting more from you, and you keep disappointing me. I am sad. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3959 "2016-09-08T13:45:07Z")
What did I say that was false? Read the article. The US has better wait times than most for most of the things they measured. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3960 "2016-09-08T13:51:17Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > What did I say that was false? Read the article. The US has better wait times than most for most of the things they measured. You said that there are uninsured Canadians. You said that millions of Canadians “can’t see a doctor at all”. Those are both false things. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/3961 "2016-09-08T14:03:01Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Because of your lone experience? Please. The stats speak for themselves. The Brits get what they pay for. And pay half as much for better outcomes than the US system and universal coverage. That’s what the stats say. > [@](#): > > Americans are going to want more. Because of your opinion? Please. The stats speak for themselves. Before the implementation of ACA approximately forty thousand people DIED each year due to lack of access to affordable healthcare. How many Canadians died for this reason? Medical bills were and are the leading cause of bankruptcy in the US. In the UK? Not so much. Apparently what Americans want is death and financial ruin. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561.md?page=197) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561.md?page=199)