# What is your ongoing opinion of the Affordable Care Act? (Title Edited) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 17, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561 "2013-01-17T23:21:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/441 "2013-09-06T18:15:08Z")
[The Biggest Study Yet of Obamacare Premiums Indicates Insurance Will Be Cheaper Than Expected](http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/09/05/kaiser_obamacare_premium_study_affordable_care_act_will_be_cheaper_than.html) > [@](#): > > The news comes to us from the Kaiser Family Foundation which recently completed the most comprehensive survey yet of what Obamacare plans will actually cost. Answering this basic question is frustratingly difficult. Premiums will vary based on your age and the size of your family. Premiums will also vary from place to place. And then subsidy levels will vary based on your income, the size of your family, and the local premiums. With all those variables in place, it’s impossible to give a quick summary answer to the question “what will it cost.” Instead you need to go step-by-step through each state and run a series of calculations. That’s what Kaiser did, creating the highest-quality survey we’ve seen yet. Unfortunately, there are still tons of places where premium data isn’t available so these preliminary conclusions might end up being off-base. But the news from what we do know is good. > > Here’s their bottom line: > > “While premiums will vary significantly across the country, they are generally lower than expected. For example, we estimate that the latest projections from the Congressional Budget Office imply that the premium for a 40-year-old in the second lowest cost silver plan would average $320 per month nationally. Fifteen of the eighteen rating areas we examined have premiums below this level, suggesting that the cost of coverage for consumers and the federal budgetary cost for tax credits will be lower than anticipated.” [An Early Look at Premiums and Insurer Participation in Health Insurance Marketplaces, 2014 [Kaiser Family Foundation study]](http://kaiserfamilyfoundation.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/early-look-at-premiums-and-participation-in-marketplaces.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/442 "2013-09-06T18:25:35Z")
I went through the calculator to figure what my costs would be if I still worked my old crappy job making $25k a year. On that job I paid roughly $100 every two weeks for a Bronze plan. Most of my co-workers (much younger than I) went without it because of the expense. Assuming they dropped coverage altogether, it would have worked in my favor, as according to the calculator, after subsidies I could get a Bronze plan for $29.42 every two weeks. I’m willing to bet most of my former co-workers would change their mind about coverage at that rate. (Most especially given any ‘penalties’ for non-participation.) ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/443 "2013-09-06T20:40:33Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > I went through the calculator to figure what my costs would be if I still worked my old crappy job making $25k a year. On that job I paid roughly $100 every two weeks for a Bronze plan. Most of my co-workers (much younger than I) went without it because of the expense. > > Assuming they dropped coverage altogether, it would have worked in my favor, as according to the calculator, after subsidies I could get a Bronze plan for $29.42 every two weeks. I’m willing to bet most of my former co-workers would change their mind about coverage at that rate. (Most especially given any ‘penalties’ for non-participation.) You are a Republican nightmare. (adaher will be by in a moment to explain why you are wrong) ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/444 "2013-09-07T03:40:06Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > And the answer is, of course that it’ll be higher for some people (and they won’t switch) and lower for some people (and they might switch) and the only option for some other people. You keep trying to reduce complex problems to heads or tails answers and the world don’t work that way unless you’re flipping a coin. For the individual, it is heads or tails, which has political consequences. Losers tend to get mad, winners tend to want to preserve their winnings. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/445 "2013-09-07T06:53:46Z")
> [@jasg](#): > > You are a Republican nightmare. (adaher will be by in a moment to explain why you are wrong) It seems that he is not. As pointed before, there is a human element of this that does continue to escape **adaher** , As it is also a denial that a good number of well to do see the injustice that currently we have on health care access and are willing to pay more to ensure others will get lifesaving help, to help others worry less about going bankrupt for health reasons, and to give also more freedoms to people with job lock. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/446 "2013-09-07T07:43:43Z")
If Democrats truly believed that, they wouldn’t have sold it as reducing premiums for everyone. That was a lie, but a necessary lie. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/447 "2013-09-07T08:18:47Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If Democrats truly believed that, they wouldn’t have sold it as reducing premiums for everyone. That was a lie, but a necessary lie. Once again, it is just a basic argument, IIRC the point was made that by providing incentives for most people to carry health insurance, it will spread health care costs across a wider base, including many relatively healthy people, thereby reducing premiums for everyone. That it will not be the case for a few is likely, but so far it is looking at being a result of the delaying and refusal of several states to implement the law. If one does trust the capabilities of private enterprise we are bound to see more progress on the costs being controlled thanks to competition, but many big inefficient groups (that by “coincidence” are located in most of the states that oppose the ACA) are in reality pushing politicians on the right to prevent that competition from arriving to their states. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/448 "2013-09-07T08:32:42Z")
It doesn’t work that way though. Most people are not sick. Community rating means that the majority that is healthy pays more to subsidize the sick. That may be justified, but the public was not told the truth about it. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/449 "2013-09-07T08:55:02Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It doesn’t work that way though. Most people are not sick. Community rating means that the majority that is healthy pays more to subsidize the sick. > > That may be justified, but the public was not told the truth about it. As pointed before the “truth” you are talking about is not in the cards for the majority of the ones that the law will include. Many republicans seem to claim nowadays that all those lies told before by the Republicans and Tea partiers were ok, not so when the result of swallowing them will \*\*increase \*\*the costs in their states for not implementing the law, and making sure many do continue to suffer for lack of access. > **[forwardprogressives.com](http://www.forwardprogressives.com/bill-clinton-schools-republicans-on-facts-about-obamacare/)** > [@](#): > > Former President Bill Clinton has been asked to travel around the country and clarify the facts about the Affordable Care Act (aka “Obamacare”). Considering how much right-wing slander has been slung at the health care law, President Obama figured Clinton was the perfect person to speak on behalf of the truth about the law. > > While speaking at his library in Little Rock, Arkansas, Clinton called on Republicans to improve Obamacare, not repeal it. > > In fact, during his hour-long speech, he echoed something similar to that of Newt Gingrich, who called Republicans out for the same thing just a few weeks ago. Clinton, like Gingrich, called out Republicans for holding 40 different votes to repeal the landmark law—yet offering absolutely no alternatives if the law were to be repealed. > > Which is absolutely true. Republicans have gone on for years about the “horrors” of the Affordable Care Act, yet haven’t offered any sort of alternative for the health care law. > > Because the truth is—they don’t have any. > > As Clinton said, not only have Republicans opposed the law, they’ve gone out of their way to undermine it as well. > > This speech seemed to play off the comments made by President Obama just a few weeks ago when he said Republicans saw defeating Obamacare as the “holy grail” of the Republican party. > > Clinton seems to have chose his home state as a staging point for this first big speech to highlight the bipartisan efforts Arkansas has exhibited in implementing the law. > > While his speech wasn’t nearly as exciting as the one he gave at last year’s DNC, he obviously targeted parts of the health care law which many Republicans have made a career out of lying about. > > **He emphasized the state exchanges, which are one of the big driving forces behind the law, and noted that states which are fighting against the law are putting millions within their state at risk of not having health insurance.**. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/450 "2013-09-07T09:06:09Z")
It doesn’t justify the lies. However, blaming Republican lies and intransigence for the unpopularity and failure of the law is also nonsense, and a lie itself if we assume the Democrats know better. Which they probably don’t. Besides, some of those “lies” have turned out to be true. there should be a price to pay for calling predictions of the future “lies” just because they disagree with what your cherry-picked experts projected. But frankly, we’ve seen this movie a couple of times before. Democrats promise huge benefits and low costs, then when the bill comes due the question is moot anyway because too many Americans have become dependent on the program. Democrats are counting on that to happen again, and then the used car salesman job they did to sell it won’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/451 "2013-09-07T09:34:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It doesn’t justify the lies. However, blaming Republican lies and intransigence for the unpopularity and failure of the law is also nonsense, and a lie itself if we assume the Democrats know better. Which they probably don’t. Nonsense, starting with the death panels and the reasons put for defunding the ACA on dozens of votes in the Republican House. > [@adaher](#): > > Besides, some of those “lies” have turned out to be true. there should be a price to pay for calling predictions of the future “lies” just because they disagree with what your cherry-picked experts projected. There is no evidence for what you claim here. > [@adaher](#): > > But frankly, we’ve seen this movie a couple of times before. Democrats promise huge benefits and low costs, then when the bill comes due the question is moot anyway because too many Americans have become dependent on the program. Democrats are counting on that to happen again, and then the used car salesman job they did to sell it won’t matter. Again, as Families USA reported: > [@](#): > > Thousands of working-age Americans die each year because they lack health coverage, and that number is rising as the ranks of the uninsured grow. Without reform, this trend will continue. > > In 2000, an estimated 18,000 adults between the ages of 25 and 64 died prematurely „„because they did not have health coverage.13 In 2006, that figure had grown to at least 22,000—a 22 percent increase.14 > > Since 1995 (after health reform was last seriously debated), an estimated 294,000 „„working-age American adults died prematurely due to a lack of health coverage.15 > > Over the next 10 years, if health reform does not pass, another 275,000 adults are „„projected to die prematurely due to a lack of health coverage.16 > > Every day this year, approximately 68 non-elderly adults are dying prematurely due to „„a lack of health coverage. Without health reform, that number is estimated to reach 84 deaths a day by 2019.17 Comparing the ones that are going to implement a plan that will help all that people to car salesmen is, besides not being logical, insulting; The lies from the Republicans in congress demonstrate something else besides someone being shifty for a sale, it is showing their inhumanity. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/452 "2013-09-07T09:41:57Z")
The evidence for my claim is the shifting statements from Democratic leaders. “If you like your plan, you can keep it.” that’s been backed away from. Pelosi recently said, “I never said that rates would be lower for everyone.” Yet she did. And your last statement is just a defense of lying. The ends justify the means. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/453 "2013-09-07T09:59:02Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The evidence for my claim is the shifting statements from Democratic leaders. “If you like your plan, you can keep it.” that’s been backed away from. Pelosi recently said, “I never said that rates would be lower for everyone.” Yet she did. > > And your last statement is just a defense of lying. The ends justify the means. Missing the point, once again I would not consider that a falsehood when the system set up actually makes the majority to see what was promised, what is more, it is logical to report it that way as the structure of the plan leads to that, but most of the problems once again are the results of obstructionism and the fact that it could be better, but it was the best that we could get so far. The point I made stands. The lies from the Republicans in congress demonstrate something else besides someone being shifty for a sale, it is showing their inhumanity. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/454 "2013-09-07T10:03:53Z")
Given how crappy Medicaid is, I’m not sure that ACA is actually going to improve any health outcomes, so opposing it is not inhumane. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/455 "2013-09-07T10:23:12Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Given how crappy Medicaid is, I’m not sure that ACA is actually going to improve any health outcomes, so opposing it is not inhumane. No evidence for that, and just by observation, Old relatives of mine do get very good treatment with Medicare, my workplace does not offer any health care but I will be able to finally get help once the exchanges open. So, still, the lies from the Republicans in congress demonstrate something else besides someone being shifty for a sale, it is showing their inhumanity. And we, the affected and the ones that will see the benefits do vote. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/456 "2013-09-07T10:45:06Z")
Actually, we’ve discussed the studies showing that Medicaid patients do no better than patients without insurance before. I believe you had competing cites showing something different, but it was all peer reviewed so at best it’s uncertain whether Medicaid patients are actually getting a benefit as far as health outcomes. As for who votes how, I’m middle income and if my company drops our insurance I’ll be paying more on the exchanges even with the subsidies. That would go for everyone in my company who makes what I make or more. I’m sure that’s Rick Scott’s fault though. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/457 "2013-09-07T10:56:51Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Actually, we’ve discussed the studies showing that Medicaid patients do no better than patients without insurance before. I believe you had competing cites showing something different, but it was all peer reviewed so at best it’s uncertain whether Medicaid patients are actually getting a benefit as far as health outcomes. :rolleyes: Even crappy service gets the patient going, and no I have seen the good care many retired relatives get. You are indeed claiming that “no service” is the same. The sources I checked and my experience and the ones from the poor people I see in the community by one school I work tells me that you are indeed just pushing an ignorant point. > [@adaher](#): > > As for who votes how, I’m middle income and if my company drops our insurance I’ll be paying more on the exchanges even with the subsidies. That would go for everyone in my company who makes what I make or more. > > I’m sure that’s Rick Scott’s fault though. Iffinitis Aguda to make your point, get a good doctor for that argument. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/458 "2013-09-07T11:24:05Z")
No insurance means you still have emergency room access. Medicaid has to do better than that, and by everything I’ve seen, it does not. Ever seen a lobby at a doctors’ office where they take Medicaid? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/459 "2013-09-07T11:44:35Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > No insurance means you still have emergency room access. It is not the same at all, you continue to be wrong and you are only repeating the FUD from the opponents of the plan. Patient dumping, sending uninsured patients to “better facilities” and denying service to uninsured right away are still happening. (It should not happen, but a relative described how at a local hospital the first thing that was shown to him was the forms were you give them permission to harass you forever for payment, so he decided to ignore a very painful sore throat, he was lucky that indeed it was not as dangerous as he thought.) > **[Patient dumping remains a concern for nation’s EDs - amednews.com](https://amednews.com/article/20120827/profession/308279941/4/)** > > At the same time, hospitals routinely fail to implement strategies that could reduce boarding. > [@](#): > > Despite the federal law that bars emergency departments from refusing to treat patients with acute medical conditions, lax enforcement and monitoring allow patient dumping to continue, argue the authors of a case study in the August Health Affairs. > > In a separate article in the journal, a group of emergency care experts argues that many hospitals have been slow to take action to address patient boarding. The practice occurs when an emergency physician has admitted a patient to the hospital but the patient remains in the ED because there is no inpatient bed available. > > The patient dumping article was co-written by legal and health policy experts as well as two physicians from Denver Health Medical Center. The article discusses five cases in which the hospital received patients from other hospitals that could be considered examples of dumping. > > For example, a 30-year-old woman who was having trouble breathing and swallowing went to the ED of a suburban Denver hospital and was found to have an abscess at the base of her tongue that was encroaching on her airway. The hospital contacted the specialist on call for surgery, but he refused to perform the procedure because the patient was uninsured. > > Denver Health took on the patient and delivered uncompensated care worth nearly $16,000, then reported the case as a violation of the Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act. The federal law was enacted in 1986 after several widely reported cases of patient dumping. In the Colorado case, the state upheld Denver Health’s report as an EMTALA violation. > > There is little empirical evidence to demonstrate how widespread dumping is, the authors acknowledged. That, they argue, is part of the problem with the current regulations. Patients may be unaware that dumping is happening. Safety-net hospitals, meanwhile, may fear that filing complaints would upset relationships with other area hospitals. > **[Patient dumping needn't be accepted](https://lasvegassun.com/news/2013/jun/09/patient-dumping-neednt-be-accepted/)** > > As University Medical Center’s chief of staff from 1982-83, I personally dealt with inappropriate and illegal transfers from other hospitals, commonly called dumping. > [@adaher](#): > > Medicaid has to do better than that, and by everything I’ve seen, it does not. Ever seen a lobby at a doctors’ office where they take Medicaid? Neither one that takes uninsured patients. But, in the case of my old relatives they go see a doctor at his medical group office. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/460 "2013-09-07T11:47:41Z")
I recognize that Medicaid in theory should be better and might even be better health care delivery than having no insurance. But it’s not so much better that it indisputably improves health outcomes. For an investment costing in the hundreds of billions of dollars, don’t the taxpayers deserve evidence that it actually accomplishes something? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561.md?page=24)