# What is your ongoing opinion of the Affordable Care Act? (Title Edited) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 17, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561 "2013-01-17T23:21:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 44
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2013, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/862 "2013-12-28T23:22:54Z")
So…how is it possible for Obama to keep making changes to the law? I thought laws were passed by congress, which this one was, but it’s apparently okay for the president to make changes without new voting on the changes by congress? What sort of precedent is there for the WH to unilaterally change laws after they’re passed? There must be some. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/863 "2013-12-29T00:35:04Z")
I doubt there will be full repeal. The Medicaid expansion will remain, as well as the exchanges, but they’ll probably allow any insurance of any sort to be sold on there and the subsidies will go away, as well as the mandate. Then Democrats will say Obamacare won, and that’s fine by me. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/864 "2013-12-29T02:32:57Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Be serious now. **You know the chance of their being fewer insured as a result of this law is much greater than .01%.** sure, it’s a big range, but it’s more like 20-70%, in other words, maybe, maybe not, and the fact that we’re even asking this question is proof of failure. It would be like saying, “Well, it’s possible the Iraqi army will defeat the US invasion at the border.” I konw no such thing, and I’m pretty sure that any guess I’d make would be far far far more accurate than your predictions. Tell you what, I’ll bet $300 that a year from now there will be more insured Americans than there are today. I’ll even be willing to find a person we can both agree on to hold the money in escrow for us. If the CBO hasn’t put out numbers by then, then the bet can end once they do. Hell, you come up with a way to measure and I’ll happily consider it as an alternative. Since I can’t get you to back up your claims, maybe I can at least make a little money off of them. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/865 "2013-12-29T04:41:59Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > … > However, one aspect of your argument is dead wrong, even though it gets thrown around a lot. The bakers do not lose anything. Every dollar they earn over that $100,000 line results in a net gain. They may not net 100 cents for each dollar, but they never wind up with a net loss. You see this argument made in discussions of progressive taxation, and **it is always wrong** there as well in U.S. history. In [rare cases](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/04/business/at-102-his-tax-rate-takes-the-cake-common-sense.html?_r=0) tax rates can exceed 100% of taxable income. In such circumstances additional income does result in a loss. Just a sign of how messed up the tax code can be. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/866 "2013-12-29T05:21:15Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > I konw no such thing, and I’m pretty sure that any guess I’d make would be far far far more accurate than your predictions. Tell you what, I’ll bet $300 that a year from now there will be more insured Americans than there are today. I’ll even be willing to find a person we can both agree on to hold the money in escrow for us. If the CBO hasn’t put out numbers by then, then the bet can end once they do. Hell, you come up with a way to measure and I’ll happily consider it as an alternative. Since I can’t get you to back up your claims, maybe I can at least make a little money off of them. A year from now? Why not four days from now? Look, I’m all for long term thinking, but you don’t kill people in the short term to save more in the long term. Or at least if you are, you should tell people you’re going to do that, because by creating more uninsured in year 1, that’s exactly what you’re doing. The Democrats violated the cardinal rule of health care: do no harm. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/867 "2013-12-29T05:41:54Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The Democrats violated the cardinal rule of health care: do no harm. How is this worse than the Republican’s cardinal rule for any social services, which is _do nothing_. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/868 "2013-12-29T05:50:43Z")
Let the private sector handle things is at least an honest position. “Support our health care bill, it’ll benefit everyone and anyone who says there will be tradeoffs is a dirty liar!” is not. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/869 "2013-12-29T08:33:33Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > A year from now? Why not four days from now? Look, I’m all for long term thinking, but you don’t kill people in the short term to save more in the long term. Or at least if you are, you should tell people you’re going to do that, because by creating more uninsured in year 1, that’s exactly what you’re doing. > > The Democrats violated the cardinal rule of health care: do no harm. I’m just going by your very own cite, the one that you didn’t seem to be able to properly paraphrase. We won’t know 4 days from now. I’m sure I’ll be right, but until we can prove it, you’ll just have to keep hoping that you finally got one right. Broken clocks and all that. So, what about the offer? I’d settle for your backing up your claims, but we both know that’s not going to happen. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/870 "2013-12-29T09:12:45Z")
Well we should know. There shouldn’t be a question as to whether a law designed to expand access to health care expands access to health care. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/871 "2013-12-29T10:25:09Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Well we should know. There shouldn’t be a question as to whether a law designed to expand access to health care expands access to health care. I don’t think there is a question as to whether it expands it, just by how much. You’re the one who keeps claiming that it isn’t going to work and have yet to provide any backing for that statement. Many of your posts in this (well, let’s be fair, most others as well) thread seems to consist of throwing shit at a wall and linking some random cite, hoping that they magically converge. So, do you have any evidence that the numbers of uninsured will grow under ACA? I mean, shit dude, I’m using your very own cites to show that how wrong you are. At least find some swill on Fox or something that actually uses made up numbers to back you up. You’ll still be wrong, but at least you’ll have someone in your corner. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/872 "2013-12-29T11:39:58Z")
The evidence is that the administration doesn’t know, which means it’s possible the number of uninsured may grow. That’s because they have no idea how many with cancelled plans got new ones. This should not be a question. No one should have lost their insurance due to ACA standards, because the President said quite clearly that you could keep your plan if you liked it, and Congress was all set to overwhelmingly pass a bill enforcing that promise. Of course, it was too late, so 5 million plans got cancelled. Number signed up on the exchanges\< 5 million. So there’s a pretty good chance that there are more uninsured than there were before. The current liberal talking point is, “well we don’t know for sure”. I think it’s more that they don’t want to know. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/873 "2013-12-29T11:42:22Z")
Since you want cites, here: > **[Obama's health law finally gets real for America](https://www.politico.com/story/2013/11/obamacare-finally-gets-real-for-america-at-least-35-million-health-insurance-policies-cancelled-099288)** > > Now is when Americans start figuring out that President Barack Obama's health care law goes beyond political talk, and really does affect them and people they know. AP says 3.5 million plans cancelled as of Nov. 4. Far less than 3.5 million people have gotten health insurance through the exchanges. Any evidence that they are getting insurance elsewhere? If not, then more people are uninsured today than before ACA. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/874 "2013-12-29T13:35:46Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Since you want cites, here: > > [http://www.politico.com/story/2013/11/obamacare-finally-gets-real-for-america-at-least-35-million-health-insurance-policies-cancelled-99288.html](http://www.politico.com/story/2013/11/obamacare-finally-gets-real-for-america-at-least-35-million-health-insurance-policies-cancelled-99288.html) > > AP says 3.5 million plans cancelled as of Nov. 4. > > Far less than 3.5 million people have gotten health insurance through the exchanges. Any evidence that they are getting insurance elsewhere? If not, then more people are uninsured today than before ACA. Of course the insurance companies blame cancellation on the ACA. But insurance companies cancel policies all the time, and they always have. There’s little reason to believe the majority of those cancellations are due to the ACA. In addition, many of those people who had cancelled plans immediately got new plans from their insurance companies, or went out and replaced the plans themselves without the exchanges. So basically, your math is faulty and reeks of selective fact-checking. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/875 "2013-12-29T14:31:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Of course the insurance companies blame cancellation on the ACA. But insurance companies cancel policies all the time, and they always have. There’s little reason to believe the majority of those cancellations are due to the ACA. Insurers cannot just cancel policies and they do not cancel policies all the time. Lawmakers saw to that a long time ago. Consumers have the right to renew. The policies are being cancelled to comply with ACA. > [@](#): > > In addition, many of those people who had cancelled plans immediately got new plans from their insurance companies, or went out and replaced the plans themselves without the exchanges. That’s what the administration says. That is not a reliable source. > [@](#): > > So basically, your math is faulty and reeks of selective fact-checking. I guess greater-than/less-than is technically math, but it’s hard to screw up, unless you’re one of those who takes the administration seriously despite a proven record of not just lying, but LOTS of lying about this law in a desperate attempt to save Obama’s Presidency. 3.5 million cancelled. At least, because that only counts states reporting data. Less than 1 million signed up(and the administration won’t reveal who actually paid or how many were in private health care plans as opposed to Medicaid). Now sure, you can ASSUME that 70-80% of those who had their plans cancelled picked a new, ACA-compliant plan. There’s just one problem with that: you’d have to assume those people were all pretty well off, because they’d be missing out on subsidies by not buying on the exchanges. You would also have to assume the exchanges are basically pointless since the majority of the private insurance consumers shun them and believe the product they get outside the exchanges is superior. OR, we could just assume the media isn’t out to get the President and believe their anecdotal reporting that people can’t afford the higher rates, or still can’t find plans that let them keep their doctor. ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/876 "2013-12-29T15:07:48Z")
My employer is switching from one major name-brand insurance company to another major name-brand insurance company. I wonder if that is counted as a cancelled plan? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/877 "2013-12-29T15:40:28Z")
No. However, if you saw a major price increase, as I did, you can blame that one on ACA. My insurance this year has a lot of “free” services that I won’t pay a co-pay for, but of course that’s not free. It means a higher premium. 28% higher in my case, to be exact, after three straight years of no increases, which oh BTW, Democrats credited to ACA. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/878 "2013-12-29T15:44:27Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > In [rare cases](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/04/business/at-102-his-tax-rate-takes-the-cake-common-sense.html?_r=0) tax rates can exceed 100% of taxable income. In such circumstances additional income does result in a loss. > > Just a sign of how messed up the tax code can be. No, that’s simply a case of calling an apple an orange. > [@](#): > > That doesn’t mean Mr. Ross pays more in taxes than he earns. His total tax as a percentage of his adjusted gross income was 20 percent, which is much lower than mine. > > That’s because Mr. Ross has so many itemized deductions. He had all of $11,044 in taxable income even though he’s a member of the 1%. That’s what’s messed up about our tax code. All those screeds against losing money by higher taxes never mention deductions. So you can’t from the other side either. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/879 "2013-12-29T16:14:24Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Insurers cannot just cancel policies and they do not cancel policies all the time. Lawmakers saw to that a long time ago. Consumers have the right to renew. The policies are being cancelled to comply with ACA. There are plenty of legal ways that insurance companies can and do drop customers besides the ACA. In any case, for many of the ACA non-compliant drops, the insurance company immediately offers an equivalent compliant plan, and much of the time, the plan is better. > [@](#): > > That’s what the administration says. That is not a reliable source. It’s not just the administration – it’s the non-partisan DC groups and the insurance companies themselves. > [@](#): > > I guess greater-than/less-than is technically math, but it’s hard to screw up, unless you’re one of those who takes the administration seriously despite a proven record of not just lying, but LOTS of lying about this law in a desperate attempt to save Obama’s Presidency. Sad, pathetic, and unsupported right wing crap. Pretty much every statement here is false. > [@](#): > > 3.5 million cancelled. At least, because that only counts states reporting data. Less than 1 million signed up(and the administration won’t reveal who actually paid or how many were in private health care plans as opposed to Medicaid). Out of date at this point – the signup numbers are growing pretty fast. And at the very least a significant chunk of that 3.5 million has had their coverage replaced already, with or without the exchanges. > [@](#): > > OR, we could just assume the media isn’t out to get the President and believe their anecdotal reporting that people can’t afford the higher rates, or still can’t find plans that let them keep their doctor. Some of the media isn’t out to get the President, and anecdotal reporting, as we know, is largely crap. Your bullshit “fewer are covered now” claim is silly – nobody said the ACA would improve everything immediately… even the administration said it would be a few years before we’d know the full extent and success of the law. You’re picking nits and selectively choosing sources that support your silly gloom-and-doom Limbaughesque blather. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/880 "2013-12-29T18:58:06Z")
My HDHP was cancelled as not compliant with the ACA - and automatically replaced with an upgraded plan, with no action or exchange signup on my part. It is a better plan and yes, I will pay more for a better plan. So Adaher, am I one of the 3.5M, one of the ACA 1M, both or neither? What are the numbers of cancelled plans that were then reinstated? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/881 "2013-12-29T21:32:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There are plenty of legal ways that insurance companies can and do drop customers besides the ACA. In any case, for many of the ACA non-compliant drops, the insurance company immediately offers an equivalent compliant plan, and much of the time, the plan is better. Whether or not the plan is better depends on the individual. Like everything government does, the ACA regulations were written with as much political considerations in mind as medical considerations. So you’ve got cases where people with chronic illnesses lose access to tertiary care facilities but now get free maternity care. Yay. The media has highlighted these cases. It’s worse insurance, and more expensive, for those individuals. > [@](#): > > Out of date at this point – the signup numbers are growing pretty fast. And at the very least a significant chunk of that 3.5 million has had their coverage replaced already, with or without the exchanges. No one has any idea how many. The administration said only 500,000 still lack insurance from that group, but they won’t provide a cite. In this community, that should be handled the way it usually is. > [@](#): > > Some of the media isn’t out to get the President, and anecdotal reporting, as we know, is largely crap. Your bullshit “fewer are covered now” claim is silly – nobody said the ACA would improve everything immediately… even the administration said it would be a few years before we’d know the full extent and success of the law. You’re picking nits and selectively choosing sources that support your silly gloom-and-doom Limbaughesque blather. It’s not a silly claim because the administration refuses to discount it. And you know they would if they could. The reason they can’t is because it’s very possible that there will be more uninsured on Jan. 1 than there were last year. I’m not cherry picking sources. There’s really only two points of view about the law now: what the media and the public thinks, and what the administration spins. Even the most loyal defenders in the liberal media can only write articles like, “Obamacare will survive”, and “Obama is not George Bush”. Sorry, once you’re writing that op-ed, your guy’s Presidency is over. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561.md?page=43) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561.md?page=45)