# What is your ongoing opinion of the Affordable Care Act? (Title Edited) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 17, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561 "2013-01-17T23:21:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 48
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/942 "2014-01-02T20:43:04Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > There’s a tax credit for premiums: [The Premium Tax Credit – The basics | Internal Revenue Service](http://www.irs.gov/uac/The-Premium-Tax-Credit) > > There’s a subsidy: [Health Insurance Marketplace Calculator | KFF](http://kff.org/interactive/subsidy-calculator/) (you could use this for accurate scenarios for your 60-year-old) First of all, the “subsidy” and the “Premium Tax Credit” are the exact same thing. Second, it doesn’t apply to that aforementioned 60-year old earning $50,000 a year. Wanna try again? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/943 "2014-01-02T20:45:04Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Nah, Terr picked this particular demographic combination because someone in it does poorly under the new law… of that, he is correct. A person who falls under all the given statistics have to pay for coverage, are not qualified for catastrophic policies (because of their age), the income is just over the amount for the tax credit (so they get no assistance there), and the age is just below where Medicare coverage kicks in. The approximately 2-5 million Americans who fall under that combination of demographics \*might \*have to pay more for their insurance if they (a) weren’t covered before, or (b) had one of those crappy Mega policies. As I said, “So then you are aghast at all these ACA plans that are shockingly expensive and not affordable for many people, right?” ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/944 "2014-01-02T20:51:01Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > First of all, the “subsidy” and the “Premium Tax Credit” are the exact same thing. Second, it doesn’t apply to that aforementioned 60-year old earning $50,000 a year. > > Wanna try again? Yes, I meant you can calculate the subsidy with that subsidy calculator thingie. I know they are the same thing. As for your 60-year-old, I’ve already told you that I reject your rough off-the-cuff estimates and guesses. Sorry. If you have real examples, bring them. But you have to bring the amounts they paid under the old system - for insurance, or out-of-pocket if they had none - to compare. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/945 "2014-01-02T20:53:00Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Because of course you personally getting the government handout is what the whole ACA is about. Other people who are forced by ACA to pay 20%+ of their income for health insurance don’t matter. Sorry, didn’t see this. I put in a $70k income. No kids. Bexar County, Texas (San Antonio) ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/946 "2014-01-02T20:55:28Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > As I said, “So then you are aghast at all these ACA plans that are shockingly expensive and not affordable for many people, right?” No, not at all. You have yet to prove their “unaffordability”. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/947 "2014-01-02T20:56:03Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Yes, I meant you can calculate the subsidy with that subsidy calculator thingie. I know they are the same thing. You can’t calculate the subsidy with that calculator thingie for that 60-year-old I mentioned. There is no subsidy. > [@](#): > > As for your 60-year-old, I’ve already told you that I reject your rough off-the-cuff estimates and guesses. Of course you do. Doesn’t fit your agenda. Here: these are the plans that Obamacare is forcing a 60-year-old earning $50,000/year to buy in one locale: > **[Health insurance plans & prices | HealthCare.gov](https://www.healthcare.gov/see-plans/)** > > Preview Marketplace health plans and price quotes for your area. Official government website. Do tell me they are not “shockingly expensive”. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/948 "2014-01-02T20:56:30Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > P.S. In any event, I’m quite confident an ACA policy would be much less than what I had to pay for COBRA and then HIPAA. I concur, especially regarding the COBRA policy. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/949 "2014-01-02T20:57:37Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > No, not at all. You have yet to prove their “unaffordability”. Is 20-30% of your income “affordable”? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/950 "2014-01-02T21:10:43Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You can’t calculate the subsidy with that calculator thingie for that 60-year-old I mentioned. There is no subsidy. > Of course you do. Doesn’t fit your agenda. > > Here: these are the plans that Obamacare is forcing a 60-year-old earning $50,000/year to buy in one locale: > > [https://www.healthcare.gov/find-premium-estimates/#results/&aud=indv&type=med&state=GA&county=Calhoun&age0=60&employerCoverage=no&householdSize=1&income=50000](https://www.healthcare.gov/find-premium-estimates/#results/&aud=indv&type=med&state=GA&county=Calhoun&age0=60&employerCoverage=no&householdSize=1&income=50000) > > Do tell me they are not “shockingly expensive”. :rolleyes: # of people in Calhoun County, GA: 6,504 # of people between 45-60 who are in single-person households: 218 Less those below poverty line (26.5% of all individuals, or 58 below poverty line): 160 Median wage (Males) Calhoun County: $25,572 Your hypothetical person would have to make twice the prevailing wage to be ineligible for Obamacare. This sort of person, especially in Calhoun County, would either be covered under an existing plan, owns the town, or _would have moved the f_\*\* away from Calhoun County\*. You picked a person with very specific demographics making over twice the standard wage in one of the poorest sections of the country. Having been to Calhoun County myself, it is quite likely your person doesn’t exist or represents, at best, 2-3 people. Talk about gaming the system: **Your person, if he made the _average_ wage in Calhoun County, would have been eligible for [FREE bronze plans](https://www.healthcare.gov/find-premium-estimates/#results/&aud=indv&type=med&state=GA&county=Calhoun&age0=60&employerCoverage=no&householdSize=1&income=25514), post tax-credit.** So… yeah. Point taken, I guess. :rolleyes: > **[Calhoun County, Georgia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calhoun_County,_Georgia)** > > Calhoun County is a rural county in the southwestern part of the U.S. state of Georgia. Its county seat is Morgan and its population was 5,573 in 2020. > Calhoun County was named for John C. Calhoun, the seventh Vice President of the United States. It was created from parts of Early and Baker counties on February 20, 1854. > Rival political factions disagreed about whether the county seat should be in Concord, a community north of present-day Leary, or in Dickey, then known as Whitney. As a comp... ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/951 "2014-01-02T21:14:09Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > :rolleyes: > > # of people in Calhoun County, GA: 6,504 > > # of people between 45-60 who are in single-person households: 218 > > Less those below poverty line (26.5% of all individuals, or 58 below poverty line): 160 > Median wage (Males) Calhoun County: $25,572 > > Your hypothetical person would have to make twice the prevailing wage to be ineligible for Obamacare. This sort of person, especially in Calhoun County, would either be covered under an existing plan, owns the town, or _would have moved the fuck away from Calhoun County_. You picked a person with very specific demographics making over twice the standard wage in one of the poorest sections of the country. I picked Calhoun because it was at the bottom of the dropdown list. Here, I picked a random county out of the middle of the list of counties: > **[Health insurance plans & prices | HealthCare.gov](https://www.healthcare.gov/see-plans/)** > > Preview Marketplace health plans and price quotes for your area. Official government website. Better? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/952 "2014-01-02T21:14:41Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You can’t calculate the subsidy with that calculator thingie for that 60-year-old I mentioned. There is no subsidy. I don’t accept your hypothetical though. > [@](#): > > Of course you do. Doesn’t fit your agenda. Don’t play this game. You’re better than this. I don’t accept unsupported facts you pull out of your ass that I’ve already shown are false. > [@](#): > > Here: these are the plans that Obamacare is forcing a 60-year-old earning $50,000/year to buy in one locale: Thank you. > [@](#): > > [Health insurance plans & prices | HealthCare.gov](https://www.healthcare.gov/find-premium-estimates/#results/&aud=indv&type=med&state=GA&county=Calhoun&age0=60&employerCoverage=no&householdSize=1&income=50000) > > Do tell me they are not “shockingly expensive”. What’s the income of this hypothetical 60-year-old? How much did he pay for insurance and medical expenses before? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/953 "2014-01-02T21:15:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I picked Calhoun because it was at the bottom of the dropdown list. > > Here, I picked a random county out of the middle of the list of counties: > > [Health insurance plans & prices | HealthCare.gov](https://www.healthcare.gov/find-premium-estimates/#results/&aud=indv&type=med&state=GA&county=Miller&age0=60&employerCoverage=no&householdSize=1&income=50000) > > Better? This is why you need to stop just pulling numbers out of a hat. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/954 "2014-01-02T21:19:20Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > What’s the income of this hypothetical 60-year-old? How much did he pay for insurance and medical expenses before? The income of that hypothetical 60-year-old is right there at the top of the page - 50,000. And he is a hypothetical, so I have no idea what he paid before. Does that make the 20-30% that he is forced to pay under ACA more “affordable”? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/955 "2014-01-02T21:19:27Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I picked Calhoun because it was at the bottom of the dropdown list. > > Here, I picked a random county out of the middle of the list of counties: > > [Health insurance plans & prices | HealthCare.gov](https://www.healthcare.gov/find-premium-estimates/#results/&aud=indv&type=med&state=GA&county=Miller&age0=60&employerCoverage=no&householdSize=1&income=50000) > > Better? Miller County, a place smaller than Calhoun (right next door, even!) with just as depressing demographics. My point remains the same - the person you’re talking about likely doesn’t exist in that county. Oddly enough, if I go to DeKalb County (part of Atlanta) and pick your demo with 2X the median male income for that county, their lowest bronze rate is $429. I would think that’s affordable to somebody making $73k/year, right? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/956 "2014-01-02T21:20:34Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > This is why you need to stop just pulling numbers out of a hat. I said many people are forced to buy “shockingly expensive” plans under Obamacare. I proved it to you - from the horse’s mouth, on the [healthcare.gov](http://healthcare.gov) web site. You can close your eyes, ears and hum loudly - doesn’t change the facts. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/957 "2014-01-02T21:24:19Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I said many people are forced to buy “shockingly expensive” plans under Obamacare. I proved it to you - from the horse’s mouth, on the [healthcare.gov](http://healthcare.gov) web site. You can close your eyes, ears and hum loudly - doesn’t change the facts. No you haven’t. You have yet to prove that there are unmarried 60 year olds in these counties that make $50k/year who aren’t covered by an already-existing plan. The baseline for this number is 160 for Calhoun County, but that includes everybody above the poverty line. Those who are four times above it, or twice the average income… how many is that. 2? 3? And how many of those 3 are already covered by insurance? A range of whole numbers with a maximum value of “3” and a minimum of “0” does not constitute “many”, imho. I have also shown that your person, far more likely to exist in a metropolitan area, would pay significantly less than the person in Calhoun County. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/958 "2014-01-02T21:25:22Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I said many people are forced to buy “shockingly expensive” plans under Obamacare. I proved it to you - from the horse’s mouth, on the [healthcare.gov](http://healthcare.gov) web site. You can close your eyes, ears and hum loudly - doesn’t change the facts. No, you showed one very incomplete example you didn’t show is represenative. Not “many”. This is why I said from the beginning that only real data that comes in in the coming months will suffice. I saw this coming. I’m not going down this road any more. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/959 "2014-01-02T21:34:24Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Miller County, a place smaller than Calhoun (right next door, even!) with just as depressing demographics. My point remains the same - the person you’re talking about likely doesn’t exist in that county. > > Oddly enough, if I go to DeKalb County (part of Atlanta) and pick your demo with 2X the median male income for that county, their lowest bronze rate is $429. I would think that’s affordable to somebody making $73k/year, right? Let’s take your (cherry-picked) example. How about $50K? And the plan has $6500 deductible. From looking at the details for that plan, you pay everything, doctor visits, drugs, everything - until you reach $6500. Then the plan kicks in. So - if you’re moderately in need for health services (which a lot 60-year-olds do) you will be on the hook for $11.5K/year. Do you think that’s “affordable” for someone earning $50K/year? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/960 "2014-01-02T21:40:46Z")
DeKalb County is the county seat for Atlanta, GA, a metropolitan area with over 6.1 million people and $300 billion in Gross Metropolitan Product. DeKalb itself is home to over 600,000 souls. A $73k/year salary in DeKalb county for a single person of age 60 is not impossible, given the overall size of the county and wealth of the surrounding area. You picked two counties in SE Georgia, in some of the most poverty-ravished areas of the country (total yearly GDP for each county _might_ top $100 million), your selected demographic earns _twice_ the average income in your selected counties, and he very likely doesn’t exist. > **[DeKalb County, Georgia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeKalb_County,_Georgia)** > > DeKalb County (/dəˈkæb/, /ˌdiːˈkæb/ də-KAB, DEE-KAB) is located in the north central portion of the U.S. state of Georgia. As of the 2020 census, the population was 764,382, making it Georgia's fourth-most populous county. Its county seat is Decatur. > DeKalb County is included in the Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Roswell, GA Metropolitan Statistical Area. It contains roughly 10% of the city of Atlanta (the other 90% lies in Fulton County). Stonecrest is the largest city that is entirely within the coun... > **[Atlanta metropolitan area](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta_metropolitan_area)** > > Metro Atlanta, designated by the United States Office of Management and Budget as the Atlanta–Sandy Springs–Alpharetta, GA Metropolitan Statistical Area, is the most populous metropolitan statistical area in the U.S. state of Georgia and the eighth-largest in the United States. Its economic, cultural, and demographic center is Atlanta, and its total population was 6,144,050 in the 2021 estimate from the U.S. Census Bureau. > The metro area forms the core of a broader trading area, the Atlanta–Ath... > **[Miller County, Georgia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_County,_Georgia)** > > Miller County is a county located in the southwestern part of the U.S. state of Georgia. As of the 2020 census, the population was 6,000. The county seat is Colquitt. The county was created on February 26, 1856, and named after Andrew Jackson Miller (1806–56), president of the Medical College of Georgia. > According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the county has a total area of 284 square miles (740 km2), of which 282 square miles (730 km2) is land and 1.2 square miles (3.1 km2) (0.4%) is water. > The... > **[Calhoun County, Georgia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calhoun_County,_Georgia)** > > Calhoun County is a rural county in the southwestern part of the U.S. state of Georgia. Its county seat is Morgan. > Calhoun County was named for John C. Calhoun, the seventh Vice President of the United States. It was created from parts of Early and Baker counties on February 20, 1854. > Rival political factions disagreed about whether the county seat should be in Concord, a community north of present-day Leary, or in Dickey, then known as Whitney. As a compromise, a spot halfway between Concord... Please, don’t accuse me of cherry-picking again. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/961 "2014-01-02T21:47:40Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > DeKalb County is the county seat for Atlanta, GA, a metropolitan area with over 6.1 million people and $300 billion in Gross Metropolitan Product. DeKalb itself is home to over 600,000 souls. A $73k/year salary in DeKalb county for a single person of age 60 is not impossible, given the overall size of the county and wealth of the surrounding area. So $50K is a regular occurrence. As I asked, is $11.5K on a $50K salary “affordable”? Or would you say that’s “shockingly expensive”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561.md?page=47) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561.md?page=49)