# What is your ongoing opinion of the Affordable Care Act? (Title Edited) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 17, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561 "2013-01-17T23:21:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 81
**Author:** ![2ManyTacos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/3da27b/32.png) [@2ManyTacos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2ManyTacos)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/1602 "2014-02-24T09:42:06Z")
Again, you’re running afoul of thinking that any of your proposals wouldn’t entail massive expenditures of political capital. Repeal is an outright impossibility now - and essentially has always been that way ever since Obama beat Romney by a landslide - especially given that implementation is moving apace all across the states and millions of people are getting facilitated coverage. Also, you can’t just undo the thousands of pages of regs that the administration has issued with the stroke of a pen & wishful thinking; there would be lawsuits galore in such a situation. But I’m going back to what I said up-thread: The GOP will _never_ have the numbers in Congress to carry out any of this nonsense. They would need a Republican POTUS first of all - which would run into 2017 at the earliest when the ACA will have been in effect for three years - not to mention a 60-vote threshold in the Senate and a majority in the House. So look, I suppose rightwing propagandists can spout this bullshit in order to secure their salaries, but in the practical world none of those things are possible. Also, you can’t run on a platform of _taking health insurance AWAY from people._ No matter how you spin it, that just isn’t a winning message. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/1603 "2014-02-24T10:09:41Z")
Which is why the administration had to lie about it, I get it. So the Republicans won’t run on taking health insurance away from people. They’ll run on giving it BACK to those who lost it and were forced into the exchanges. There are a lot more people who lost their insurance plan that they liked than gained a new one. The numbers are still with the GOP. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/1604 "2014-02-24T10:45:09Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Which is why the administration had to lie about it, I get it. So the Republicans won’t run on taking health insurance away from people. They’ll run on giving it BACK to those who lost it and were forced into the exchanges. > > There are a lot more people who lost their insurance plan that they liked than gained a new one. The numbers are still with the GOP. How many people lost it again? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/1605 "2014-02-24T11:10:56Z")
3 million or so. And the other shoe hasn’t dropped yet: employer insurance losses. That’ll be much higher. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/1606 "2014-02-24T14:19:11Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Victory is repealing ACA and replacing it with the Republican alternative. Which essentially \*is \*ACA, except with Obama’s name taken off of it. :rolleyes: If that’s all it takes for you to consider it a victory, why not just stop calling it Obamacare? Your guys are the ones who started that, btw. > [@](#): > > Or simply gutting it by Presidential fiat in 2017. So, a “Republican alternative”, or nothing, either is acceptable to you as long as you can strip Obama of what you see as a victory, huh? The public welfare is not an actual consideration for you, it’s all about petty point-scoring, huh? That’s pretty damn sad. Oh, as to your baldfaced claim that the government cannot mandate a purchase? [False, always has been.](http://www.newrepublic.com/article/politics/102620/individual-mandate-history-affordable-care-act) And, whenever you get told a story about Obamacare costing someone coverage, [be just a little skeptical,](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CEcQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fthinkprogress.org%2Fhealth%2F2013%2F10%2F31%2F2868631%2Fessential-guide-debunking-obamacare-cost-myth%2F&ei=k1QLU4KyG5TlygHi-oCACA&usg=AFQjCNG4_Bc10w80VXdwL3PMMLnZ67Ks0g&sig2=SzngBGfj6o_iqjfiRuueww) okay? You’ll embarrass yourself a whole lot less. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/1607 "2014-02-24T15:22:22Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > SCOTUS ruled that Congress can tax pretty much anything it wants. Congress cannot however, mandate the purchase of something under threat of criminal sanctions, even criminal sanctions as minor as a fine. Okay. So what? What’s that got to do with anything now? > [@](#): > > Your argument doesn’t hold up as good policy either. Fundamental to good policy is determining what your objective is. What is the primary objective of ACA? To cover the uninsured. Not because they are freeloaders, but because they are in need of health coverage. Who said that? In any event, covering the uninsured required getting rid of the freeloaders. > [@](#): > > Part of a good policy to extend coverage would be to avoid disruptions to the coverage of the 80-85% who had it. Thus, promises were made, but broken. Nope. The disruption will be temporary. I don’t know, since that’s never been the way I’ve thought of the issue. The brief flirtation with the individual mandate aside, Republicans have always beeni n favor of voluntary insurance and opposed to government mandated insurance. The first iteration of Medicare was passed during the Eisenhower administration and it was voluntary. Eisenhower and most Republicans opposed mandatory insurance for the elderly. Opposition to mandatory insurance goes back a long way and wasn’t just discovered in 2009. the support of the mandate in the 90s was an aberration. Republicans believe, as Democrats do, that the purpose of health care reform is to get health coverage to those who need it. Candidate Obama believed the same thing. One of many promises he broke. With more to come. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/1608 "2014-02-24T17:54:44Z")
Odd, isn’t it, how the horror stories [keep melting](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2014/02/20/a-hard-hitting-anti-obamacare-ad-makes-a-claim-that-doesnt-add-up/)under the light of investigation? If the reality was what \*\*adaher \*\*claims it to be, or even close, then there wouldn’t be any need to invent stories. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/1609 "2014-02-24T18:10:34Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Odd, isn’t it, how the horror stories [keep melting](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2014/02/20/a-hard-hitting-anti-obamacare-ad-makes-a-claim-that-doesnt-add-up/)under the light of investigation? If the reality was what \*\*adaher \*\*claims it to be, or even close, then there wouldn’t be any need to invent stories. I like this part: > [@](#): > > The claim that the costs are now “unaffordable” appeared odd because, under Obamacare, there is an out-of-pocket maximum of $6,350 for covered expenses under an individual plan, after which the insurance plan pays 100 percent of covered benefits. The Blue Cross Blue Shield plans in Michigan that appear to match Boonstra’s plan, as described in local news reports, all have that limit. > > Meanwhile, Boonstra told the Detroit News that her monthly premiums were cut in half, from $1,100 a month to $571. That’s a savings of $529 a month. Over the course of a year, the premium savings amounts to $6,348—just two dollars shy of the out-of-pocket maximum. Heck, I’ll give her the other $2. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/1610 "2014-02-24T18:34:20Z")
I enrolled in Obamacare, the website was indeed a total fuckup, but the healthcare is VERY affordable now, and I had no medical insurance prior, so I’m completely happy with it. So is my wife, and so are you if you’re not an idiot … we can get the maintenance drugs we need to avoid the sort of issues that lead to costly emergency room visits, which would have been indigent care visits prior to Obamacare. You know who pays for all that indigent care? You do. I’m glad I could spare you the expense. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/1611 "2014-02-24T19:52:27Z")
[A broader overview of the Pubs’ latest campaign of lies.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2014/01/31/gop-obamacare-sabotage-works/) At least they’ve been blatant enough to get the media stenographers off their asses. “Bette in Spokane”, the poster child of Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers’ SOTU rebuttal, refused even to look. Says the linked report: > [@](#): > > Grenier acknowledged the couple probably could have shaved another $100 a month off the replacement policy costs by purchasing them from the state’s online portal, the Health Plan Finder website, but they chose to avoid the government health exchanges. > > “I wouldn’t go on that Obama website at all,” said Grenier." ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/1612 "2014-02-24T20:20:15Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > [A broader overview of the Pubs’ latest campaign of lies.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2014/01/31/gop-obamacare-sabotage-works/) At least they’ve been blatant enough to get the media stenographers off their asses. “Bette in Spokane”, the poster child of Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers’ SOTU rebuttal, refused even to look. Says the linked report: > [@](#): > > Grenier acknowledged the couple probably could have shaved another $100 a month off the replacement policy costs by purchasing them from the state’s online portal, the Health Plan Finder website, but they chose to avoid the government health exchanges. > > “I wouldn’t go on that Obama website at all,” said Grenier." This and the comments to the Washington Post article Lance linked to demonstrate that critical thought and rational decision making about healthcare have been replaced by political posturing and mindless repetition of political talking points. This thread also shows that tendency. Anyone who has done even a modicum of research into healthcare systems around the world will quickly see that the US compares extremely poorly to other OECD countries. Even though some of the government run US systems might compare more favorably and we develop world class medical technology, overall the US seems to be more in line with 2nd or even 3rd world healthcare systems. The ACA is far from perfect, but we are trying to change. Going back to the pre-Obamacare status quo would be a national tragedy. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/1613 "2014-02-24T21:47:04Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > How many people lost it again? > [@adaher](#): > > 3 million or so. How many of those now have insurance with compliant policies? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/1614 "2014-02-25T11:33:51Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > “Bette in Spokane”, the poster child of Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers’ SOTU rebuttal, refused even to look. It’s nice of the right-wing morons to volunteer to subsidize everyone else by paying far more than they need to for health insurance. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/1615 "2014-02-25T13:05:23Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Which essentially \*is \*ACA, except with Obama’s name taken off of it. :rolleyes: > > If that’s all it takes for you to consider it a victory, why not just stop calling it Obamacare? Your guys are the ones who started that, btw. If your opinion is that the GOP alternative is essentially ACA, then I’m going to hold you to that.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/1616 "2014-02-25T13:28:14Z")
That’s all you’ve presented to us as “the” Republican alternative. I could be less kind and point out, again, that for years it’s been nothing more than “fuck off”. So are you going to answer your own question and tell us what you would consider a “victory”, and why, or just let the obvious inferences stand? Do you wish the laughter to continue or to stop? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/1617 "2014-02-25T13:33:36Z")
There are a couple of differences. Mainly, there are no mandates. People can continue to buy “inadequate” insurance if they desire. I don’t remember this ever being a part of the discussion on the bill, that we had to make people buy better insurance than they already had. The opposite was said, actually. The GOP plan is like ACA only if you consider the parts the GOP kept to be the most important. For those who think the mandate are vital, the law “guts” ACA. But if you want my opinion, the GOP plan is Obamacare with wings, where as ACA is Obamacare with horns.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/1618 "2014-02-25T13:44:28Z")
> [@jasg](#): > > The ACA is far from perfect, but we are trying to change. Going back to the pre-Obamacare status quo would be a national tragedy. And for me and quite a few others, a personal one. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/1619 "2014-02-25T14:03:45Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > There are a couple of differences. Mainly, there are no mandates. …For those who think the mandate are vital, the law “guts” ACA. So you actually think there _is_ a _single_ “Republican alternative”, and that’s the key difference? Cite for either? And on what basis do you think premiums can be held low without mandated participation by a larger pool? Is\* that \*what you’d consider a Republican “victory”, then? Retaining the ability to avoid paying and then freeload when you do need treatment? Care to expound? ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/1620 "2014-02-25T16:43:36Z")
Don’t expect an answer, **adaher** has ignored/refused to answer the no mandate question on numerous occasions. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/1621 "2014-02-25T17:01:21Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > … > > Oh, as to your baldfaced claim that the government cannot mandate a purchase? [False, always has been.](http://www.newrepublic.com/article/politics/102620/individual-mandate-history-affordable-care-act) … This deserves calling out every time it is raised. SCOTUS, in the same ruling that upheld the individual mandate as a constitutional tax, [did not hold](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Federation_of_Independent_Business_v._Sebelius#Commerce_Clause_and_the_Necessary_and_Proper_Clause) that it is permissible under the Commerce Clause or the Necessary and Proper Clause to mandate a purchase. Your cite is from an article published April 2012 that pre-dates the SCOTUS decision June of the same year. Given the justice’s unwillingness to uphold the PPACA under the Commerce Clause or the Necessary and Proper Clause it seems highly doubtful that Congress can mandate you to purchase anything they choose. But they can tax you if you don’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561.md?page=80) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561.md?page=82)