You have to be kidding me.
This is up there with “all other countries are jealous of the US system” as far as ridiculous statements go.
The trouble is that they do. They just don’t want to pay for it.
Regards,
Shodan
You are *already *subsidizing those “idiots”. Either through your own insurance, since there are doubtless many of your fellow insured who use it more than you do (and the costs get passed on to you in the form of higher premiums), or by higher prices in general, when the uninsured use the emergency services since they can’t afford to go to a regular physician.
Increased taxes I can see, yes- although everything at this point is an estimation, as there’s been no info released (that I know of) which says how much (if any) taxes will increase on every taxpayer. Lost productivity? Lost economic opportunity? Those are, at best, conjectures.
As I said, I’d heard that it was on the profit, not the total payroll. A bit of searching isn’t finding the info- do you have a link which details it?
Maybe for the other half of your income? For the future growth of your company?
Anyway, I think I see your problem- you seem to want to paint the uninsured as people who make “bad” decisions, who eat junk food and drive home loaded. I guess it’s easier to deny those people coverage if, in your mind, they don’t deserve it.
No, it’s completely relevant. You don’t want to pay for things that other people may use or misuse. What makes healthcare so different from the highway system or the fire department?
And being sick doesn’t affect someone’s economic advancement? Healthy people make for a healthy economy.
I apologize, I just realized that I misattributed this quote to Sateryn76 instead of xtisme.
They are crying out for it. But they can’t have it.
If it is better, it will cost more. If it is cheaper, then those who are now insured need to accept that they will get less for the same money. If it is more comprehensive, it will either cost more, or deliver a lower level of service.
There ain’t no free lunch. We cannot raise enough money to cover the $787 billion AND the coming crunch in Social Security AND the coming crunch in Medicare AND another $400 billion to cover the existing deficit AND another trillion dollars to cover a huge new government health care system by painlessly taxing some one else.
YOU are going to have to pay for it. Not “the rich”, not the pharm companies, not somebody else. YOU.
You will pay more and get less. And it is going to hurt.
Think whatever you are willing to pay in increased taxes and how much inconvenience you are willing to tolerate so that someone else you have never met and don’t know can get coverage. Then triple it.
That’s the starting point. It goes up from there.
Regards,
Shodan
Utterly wrong. I know you’re just using hyperbole to make a point, but you really are pulling those numbers from your naughty place.
Shodan’s posts here are on target. What he left out is that there will always be politicians who will tell the people that they can have it all, and that it won’t cost money, and that it will be better & cheaper etc. etc. And many people, faced with a choice of what to believe, are going to be biased to believe that it’s true.
And later it’s too late.
YES WE CAN!
Okay, I probably shouldn’t have said idiots…I don’t want this debate to take that turn…
My concern is that I am losing my *choice *under this UHC plan. As I have said, I am very proactive about my healthcare, and I don’t think it’s right to take that away from me or anyone else.
Why is this plan the only plan? Healthcare prices have been terribly distorted to the point where the market has no real way to determine what is even going on. Why do we jump straight to government controls when we haven’t explored issues like the insurance maze, the limits on medical school admissions creating a fake shortage of nurses and doctors, the costs of government funding for free clinics, the outdated system of teaching hospitals, technological advances like electronic record keeping and billing systems, etc. The fact that these things are not really are not being examined bother me. In general, the only medical care that has been dropping their prices through competition and efficiency are things like plastic surgery, LASIK and cosmetic dentistry - which are also things that exist outside of the standard medical insurance system.
Well, if you look at the numbers coming out of the House/Senate, and out of the CBO, which are even worse, there is no way that taxes won’t increase. On every American. Thinking that there is some way around that is just silly. I know that, if my family opts out of the traditional system (which we do now), it will cost us an additional 2.5% of our yearly income - which in our case means about an extra $2200 a year for Uncle Sam. This, for healthcare we’re not even using.
So far as lost economic opportunity, I detailed in my first post how that would effect me directly. So far as lost productivity, the health care rationing that is sure to happen will result in me sitting on my rear at some point, waiting for my healthcare. There have been too many studies about the wait for healthcare for chronic conditions in other UHC countries, and if I can’t move my hands due to carpal tunnel, then I can’t work.
THOMAS is acting funny this morning - here’s a piece from the Wall Street Journal
Don’t you see a 50% chunk as being a little limiting for my company? For any company? And that number just goes up as I hire more employees and have to add them to my insurance.
No, although I can see where you get that impression. My fault - it’s very easy to use dumb people as a quick example. What I’m trying to point out is that I will be *forced *to share my insurance pool with people who are not of my choosing.
Now, if I want to pay more and get more out of my company, I can choose one with higher premiums, which may price out those with extremely poor habits. Or I can bank every last cent I make in an HSA, covering my family and sharing with no one at all. The choice is mine.
I am not even worried at this point about the nebulous group we call the “uninsured” Of course they exist - some I know very well. But to say that all of them are priced out of the system because of big bad corporate insurance is folly. Some don’t have insurance by choice - they’ve run through the averages, they’re young and healthy and have good savings to fall back on. Some are in between jobs, and either have COBRA or nothing for the moment, and odds are excellent that they won’t need to go to the doctor in that two or three months they’re out of work. And yes, some are terribly poor - that’s why we have Medicaid.
I will not allow you to drag those side issues into the discussion. Too many good threads have gone awry with accusations of Libertarian intent. I will only say that some things in your initial list I think are best managed by the government, and some are not. I believe health care is one that is not.
Of course, but when you’re talking about a plan so massive in scale that it costs trillions of dollars and takes choices out of the hands of the citizens, you need more than platitudes to make your argument.
Well, there was certainly a level of tongue in cheek in my reply.
What parts do you take exception too? The part you quoted seemed relatively accurate to me. Certainly not on par with such an over the top statement as your own strawman. So…what is your specific issue what what you quoted?
-XT
No worries…all us ‘conservatives’ look alike. 
Ok. I haven’t read the cite as yet (I’ll try and look at it tonight when I get back to the hotel), but let’s say that the cite very clearly asks something along the lines of ‘do you think the health care system in the country should be changes or improved in quality and affordability’. No brainer…I’d say yes to that question as well. I’d also say yes if they asked me ‘do you want to pay less taxes and get more services…plus a magic pony!’.
The problem is that polls like the one you describe (and, again, I haven’t read it yet, so it might be different than the other myriad polls I’ve seen cited in threads like this) are asking what people would LIKE…not what they are willing to pay for. We’d all LIKE better health care that is cheaper and more available to everyone…the devil though is in the details. Think it through here…if 82% of Americans REALLY want something (and are willing to pay for it) then why don’t we have it?? That’s such a clear majority that pols should be crawling over each other in an effort to ensure that those 82% vote for them.
Well, it would be, if that was the conclusion I was drawing. Not that I’m adverse to being flippant, mind, but that wasn’t what I was getting at there.
-XT
America doesn’t have the money to pay for it.
The USA needs to generate a lot more economic wealth before it can realistically pay for every citizen’s health care. Having an economy that’s propped up by China and Japan is the sign of a bankrupt country – not a prosperous one.
There is nothing wrong with healthcare in the US, as a matter of fact we have the best healthcare in the world. This is what I thought for many years. The years when I was a young republican, single, healthy, making 6 figures and driving my Porsche to the beach on weekends.
My senior year in college I landed a great job and never looked back. Although I was quite healthy, I of course opted into the best healthcare plan that the company offered. Sure it cost me a few bucks each paycheck, but that’s what responsible adults do, right? Who cares if I never went to the doctor, ok, well sure there was that nasty sinus infection that I got after diving off the coast of Guam, and well that concussion I suffered in a wreck during a motorcycle track day in Seattle. But, hey I wasn’t some poor schlub, I was a working professional, and I had the best insurance the company offered in the country with the best healthcare in the world!
At some point in our lives we all grow up, I never thought I would grow up to be a middle class indentured servant.
- Facing the mortality of those you love.
It was my first father’s day, driving home from dinner with my 6-month pregnant fiancé, the top down, a beautiful early summer evening. Nothing could spoil this night, except for the elderly gentleman who ran the red light, later he would say “I never even saw the light”. A lesson in physics, a large mass (minivan) traveling at 40 mph, when hitting a small mass (convertible Porsche) traveling at 40 mph, does some serious fucking damage.
Thank god for the sedan on my right, that adsorbed some of the energy from the minivan, deflecting the minivan just enough so that it did not hit my passenger door squarely at 40 mph. Otherwise I would neither be married nor a father, side impact airbags notwithstanding. Thank god for the wonderful doctors at the best trauma center in the area, who stopped my fiancés contractions and saved my daughters life. Thank god I opted to pay high auto insurance premiums for better than average accidental medical coverage, because the elderly gentleman sure didn’t.
- A lesson on healthcare insurance
A couple of years ago my son was born, several weeks premature, an accidental fall in the bathroom triggered the contractions. Unfortunately, I was out of town on a business trip. The wonderful doctors at one of the top neo-natal intensive care units in the area spent several weeks saving my sons life. The excellent insurance coverage I had from the large, international company I was working for plus my co-pays footed the bill. Of course being born premature can have some longer term complications. The neo-natal doc and the pediatrician recommended a series of immunity boosting shots that would eliminate or reduce future risk; luckily I was paying for the best insurance my company offered.
A couple of months after my son was born, news from top management was a major layoff that would affect hundreds of people in the US, across the board. No position was “safe”, everyone would be looked at, even top US management. The rumor mill churned out talks of impending sale to another company. I was spared in the layoff, but decided to accept a job with a smaller firm, that would have me traveling less, and home with the family more. Little did I know that upon acceptance of the new job, my son’s treatment would no longer be covered, being a pre-existing condition and all. The out of pocket expense for the remaining treatment would be $2,000 per month.
- With healthcare, you don’t always get what you pay for.
My new company was small, that’s one of the things that attracted me to it during the interviews, the “family” attitude of the small company. “We’ll take care of you like you’re one of our own” they said. Unfortunately, the bargaining power of a small company is little when it comes to negotiating health insurance plans. There was basically one plan, and it was average at best. My monthly premiums were higher, my copay’s were higher, my coverage was less.
Last year my wife was diagnosed with a degenerative disease, the doctors give her four years, unless we find a bone marrow match. Last year the economy hit the small company I am working for and through a series of lay offs the staff was reduced by 50%, the remaining staff took pay cuts. I am still here; I am working my ass off to stay here. It’s not because I’m afraid I couldn’t find work if I were to be laid off, I am a professional engineer, licensed in multiple states, I could even work for myself. So, what does have me worried, staying at this small company, making less money, paying more for insurance, getting less coverage. The fact is, if I were to go off on my own, that due to my wife’s medical condition, she is not coverable under a private insurance plan. And if I were to go to a new company, I don’t know if her present condition would be covered under any new plan.
At any rate, this is my story. I know I am much luckier than many people, and I certainly do not feel sorry for myself. I am worried about my wife, as I love her very much. I can’t imagine what it must be like for people that are in worse financial situations than we are. I do believe we have some of the best doctors and medical facilities in the US. But, I have a different opinion on healthcare insurance, and the worries it can cause to hardworking, everyday people. I don’t know if the dem’s plan is the right one to address the situation. I do know that the current healthcare system in the US, has the sick between a rock and a hard place. You can plan all you want, but getting sick is not predictable.
Stanley Greenberg, a Democrat pollster, writes:
Food and entertainment are certainly wrong. “Drugs” it is unclear whether you mean legal or illegal. Porn - well who buys porn these days?
Housing is difficult. As Americans on here are quick to point out, the US is a big place. California can be as different to, say, South Carolina as the United Kingdom is to Sweden - and I know for certain that the cost of housing in the UK is way, way, way higher than Sweden (I’m a Brit that has lived in Sweden for ten years).
The overall point is that the taxpayer funding your health insurance is not going to make it cost any less. And therefore taxpayer funding does not address the problem of health care inflation, and costs will go up just as fast and just as much. Perhaps even more and faster, with the (theoretically) infinitely deep pockets of the taxpayer behind it.
If we cannot afford privately funded health care now, how can we afford to spend the same amount, or more, on taxpayer funded health care? Because the tendency is going to be almost inescapable for people in your situation to get into the taxpayer funded program. And that means that, on average, you are going to be spending just as much, or more.
Regards,
Shodan
You left out the money to pay for cap and trade. In my area of the country that would cost me 1 - 2 months worth of insurance premiums. All of these programs rushing through Congress have HUGE price tags on them. To the extent they can be reversed in another election is uncertain but a socialized program is difficult to undue.
All of these programs have the added benefit of pushing jobs overseas. If we’re so intent on making thousandaires out of millionaires they will take their ball and go to a new home. People with money will hide it from taxation (like Theresa Heinze-Kerry), not pay it (like John Kerry or Tim Geitner), or simply move the whole shop to a different county (pick a company). Wealthy politicians like Al Gore can espouse a global warming plan that penalizes the little guy and then move his business dealings overseas if he ever decides to. I’ve used Democrats as examples because they represent social spending programs but you can insert your favorite tax dodging Republican millionaire here for debate purposes. You cannot take money from a wealthy person if they don’t want you too. If you want more money from a wealth person it is best to get it from the jobs they produce.
Actually, I don’t mind paying what I am paying or even slightly more, if the coverage is there, and my wife is taken care of. The unfortunate thing for me is that my healthcare is tied to my employer, and my wife cannot get insured if we decide not to opt into my employer’s poorly negotiated health plan. If I do get laid off, well then we are basically screwed healthcare wise.
Would you rather have insurance disconnected from employment, like myself and many others have been advocating? Or should we just jump right into total government control? Serious question.
I don’t think anybody disagrees that pre-existing conditions needs to be addressed as part of the solution. The whole purpose of insurance is to be able to cover yourself. The risk should transfer from one company to another. the additional cost is easier to handle with higher premiums (versus no insurance) which can be offset with tax deductions or outright rebates. The IRS extends its role as a welfare institution with little additional expenditure.