# What is your opinion of Spiral Dynamics? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 17, 2008, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-spiral-dynamics/463951 "2008-09-17T04:09:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-spiral-dynamics/463951/1 "2008-09-17T04:09:05Z")
A community group I belong to was just given a presentation concerning a program called Spiral Dynamics. The person giving the demonstration mentioned that this program was used by major corporations and people like Karl Rove to be successful and get people to do what they want, also mentioning that this program was a big secret that “The Powers That Be” don’t want us to know about. He claimed that people in the know paid thousands to learn the secrets of Spiral Dynamics, but he and his group felt that the common man deserved to have these secrets for $25 a session. What they wanted from our group was the use of meeting space every Saturday, and in return they would give us 10% of the gross. Does anyone here have any experience with this program and if so, what is your opinion of it? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-spiral-dynamics/463951/2 "2008-09-17T04:16:58Z")
Sounds like a unholy mish-mash of Scientology and Total Quality Management. Being the charming fellow that I am, I’d likely have suggested the proponent of said program go fuck himself. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-spiral-dynamics/463951/3 "2008-09-17T04:23:49Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Sounds like a unholy mish-mash of Scientology and Total Quality Management. Being the charming fellow that I am, I’d likely have suggested the proponent of said program go fuck himself. I think I’ll need a _bit_ more than that, I’m afraid. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-spiral-dynamics/463951/4 "2008-09-17T04:43:48Z")
Well, the world is full of marks, so they’d prolly manage to sell some of this snake oil. Still, having some experience with carny types, if I was to rent them my meeting space I wouldn’t be taking any percentage. Cash money, paid in advance. Otherwise, you’d be amazed at how little “gross” showed on any records they happen to keep. There’s prolly an even money bet that they’d skip town without paying at all. Did I mention I’m a little cynical? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-spiral-dynamics/463951/5 "2008-09-17T05:09:34Z")
Well, I wikied it: [Spiral Dynamics - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_Dynamics) A lot of pop psychology mixed with unproven theory, coupled with a split up of the two people who invented it. I still hope for responses from those who have gone through this program. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-spiral-dynamics/463951/6 "2008-09-17T05:21:03Z")
If people _think_ something works, it can give them the confidence to be successful even if it doesn’t work at all. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2008, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-spiral-dynamics/463951/7 "2008-09-17T05:27:52Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > If people _think_ something works, it can give them the confidence to be successful even if it doesn’t work at all. Again, I am looking for responses from people who know about this program in particular. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-spiral-dynamics/463951/8 "2008-09-18T11:38:04Z")
No one has experience with or knowledge of this organization? ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-spiral-dynamics/463951/9 "2008-09-18T11:56:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No one has experience with or knowledge of this organization? Oddly I am working with Spiral Dynamics right now. Beck pioneered it but was hardly the only person to begin the work with it. [Ken Wilber](http://www.kenwilber.com/home/landing/index.html)[Integral Theory] helped tremendously with Becks work, as did [Dr. Clare Graves](http://www.clarewgraves.com/home.html). Looking at different memes as a way to understand out connection to the planet and how that intimately links to what we do career-wise and as a human being is very interesting. PM me for more information [including diagrams], I am working with this right now…so I am curious where you were reading about it. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-spiral-dynamics/463951/10 "2008-09-18T14:42:04Z")
Unfortunately, I can’t help with the OP question, but maybe your issue can be approached from another direction – contractually. It sound like you are on the board or staff of a community center that rents or gives space out to outside groups. Presumably you have some policies in place about what th space can be used for, by who, and at what price. It seems odd to me that your organization would allow or disallow a space request based on how ditsy a sociological theory they profess. What would your answer be if some Primal Scream or Scientology group came along? Frankly, I wouldn’t want to get in a situation where I had to defend decisions this way. And if the Scientologists came along and you denied them space while granting it to these Spiral people, you might actually find yourself in court. So maybe you ought to be looking at a policy review to come up with one that doesn’t require you to make these kinds of judgements. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-spiral-dynamics/463951/11 "2008-09-18T15:18:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > A community group I belong to was just given a presentation concerning a program called Spiral Dynamics. The person giving the demonstration mentioned that this program was used by major corporations and people like Karl Rove to be successful and get people to do what they want, also mentioning that this program was a big secret that “The Powers That Be” don’t want us to know about. That doesn’t sound like how I understand it at all. “Get people to do what you want”? That’s a total misrepresentation, to make a very long story short. Note that I come to it from the angle of having read most of Ken Wilber’s works, not from being involved in any program of this sort. Sounds like the original concept has been co-opted and twisted out of all recognition by whatever guilty parties, and seeing Karl Rove’s name being dropped here really surprised me, as he is about the last person on this Earth that I’d associate with SD, as I grok it. Ken has made a big deal out of differentiating what he calls Translation from Transformation. Translation is when you dabble in your own level-in terms of the Wiki article say you are at Orange; this means exploring the Orange level in all its various aspects (as in the different developmental lines-mental/emotional/interpersonal etc.), but never going above that into the higher levels. Doing that is what is meant by Transformation, which involves a complete and total revising of your world view (as you can tell by reading the blurbs for the various stages). Most people tho (like Messer Rove I’d guess) are perfectly content to stay at their base level (few attempt to Transform, as it can be pretty scary for many), and in fact Wilber has discussed what happens when high-powered exec types go to such personal growth seminars; they come out of it with some newly found “techniques”, which they then proceed to use ruthlessly back in their professional life (i.e. no actual personal growth occurred, no new perspectives gained, they just learned new ways to screw the competition). I basically accept, without wanting to start a big GD here, Wilber’s basic framework, with some caveats. What other people may have done with his ideas probably isn’t fully under his control. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-spiral-dynamics/463951/12 "2008-09-18T15:25:31Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > That doesn’t sound like how I understand it at all. “Get people to do what you want”? That’s a total misrepresentation, to make a very long story short. Note that I come to it from the angle of having read most of Ken Wilber’s works, not from being involved in any program of this sort. Sounds like the original concept has been co-opted and twisted out of all recognition by whatever guilty parties, and seeing Karl Rove’s name being dropped here really surprised me, as he is about the last person on this Earth that I’d associate with SD, as I grok it. I agree, I’m working with Wilber’s Integral Institute right now and seeing Karl Rove’s name dropped on this theme really makes me scratch my head. Incidentally, as you appear to enjoy Wilber’s work, his[Integral Institute](http://www.integralinstitute.org/)is really cutting edge in this field. I’ve enjoyed working with them immensely. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-spiral-dynamics/463951/13 "2008-09-18T16:14:56Z")
I must note that the community group I am currently a part of is tied to the Episcopalian church. While they are somewhat lenient, I am pretty much sure they wouldn’t be willing to rent the space to Scientologists. The group making the proposal is saying that what they will be giving (for a $25 fee) is a single three or four hour group session every Saturday, and that this single class will pretty much cover the program, but that an additional class to cover the top two levels will be offered to those who want it. Does this sound realistic, considering the scope of this program? Are these classes often given in neighborhood settings, instead of business settings? Are the claims of thirty to forty participants each week realistic? ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-spiral-dynamics/463951/14 "2008-09-18T16:37:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I must note that the community group I am currently a part of is tied to the Episcopalian church. While they are somewhat lenient, I am pretty much sure they wouldn’t be willing to rent the space to Scientologists. > The group making the proposal is saying that what they will be giving (for a $25 fee) is a single three or four hour group session every Saturday, and that this single class will pretty much cover the program, but that an additional class to cover the top two levels will be offered to those who want it. Does this sound realistic, considering the scope of this program? Are these classes often given in neighborhood settings, instead of business settings? Are the claims of thirty to forty participants each week realistic? I see mainly green types and transpersonal psychologists at the places I associate with the theory…I’ve never seen a group charging for this. That is why my curiosity was piqued. Are they selling something, like SD will help you with blank, blank, blank? SD is a theory, so I’m not sure what they want by charging a fee at a community setting at an Episcopal Church. SD if fairly innocuous - I can see a utilitarian use for it, but nothing along the lines of a self-help type thing, and not much that Karl Rove would be interested in, well maybe some mad scientist type things but still… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-spiral-dynamics/463951/15 "2008-09-18T16:42:29Z")
But can people really get anything useful out of a single 3 or 4 hour session? ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-spiral-dynamics/463951/16 "2008-09-18T16:52:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > But can people really get anything useful out of a single 3 or 4 hour session? Well, yes, of course, they can get a better understanding of the theory. Understanding historical memes in relation to how Beck thinks life is evolving is very interesting to some people. An episcopal church is an interesting place for that…but hey why not? It’s the charge that is interesting, Is this a workshop? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-spiral-dynamics/463951/17 "2008-09-18T16:55:23Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Sounds like a unholy mish-mash of Scientology and Total Quality Management. Being the charming fellow that I am, I’d likely have suggested the proponent of said program go fuck himself. That seems improbable. In my experience, men who run such programs have penises so short that even fucking others is problematic. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-spiral-dynamics/463951/18 "2008-09-18T17:12:46Z")
> [@Phlosphr](#): > > Well, yes, of course, they can get a better understanding of the theory. Understanding historical memes in relation to how Beck thinks life is evolving is very interesting to some people. An episcopal church is an interesting place for that…but hey why not? It’s the charge that is interesting, Is this a workshop? It’s being pushed as a way for the common man to gain the inner secrets that allow the rich and successful to _be_ rich and successful. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-spiral-dynamics/463951/19 "2008-09-18T17:28:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It’s being pushed as a way for the common man to gain the inner secrets that allow the rich and successful to _be_ rich and successful. Oh for God Sakes! I wonder who is running the program? Is it endorsed by Beck? Spiral Dynamics is not something to profit from, it’s a tool a theory to understand one man’s view on how human beings have evolved with an ecological/transpersonal twist in it. Someone has taken the higher levels of SD and tried to trace them backwards in hopes of making a buck. At least that is what it sounds like. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-spiral-dynamics/463951/20 "2008-09-18T17:30:34Z")
I won’t be much help, but here is what I have: I just started a book by Ken Wilber called \*Boomeritis \*that mentions this. I couldn’t finish the book and Ken seems pretty much full of it. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-spiral-dynamics/463951.md?page=2)