# What is your opinion of the S.C.A. as it stands today **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 19, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945 "2013-07-19T15:59:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/181 "2016-01-14T21:47:14Z")
> [@Aangelica](#): > > I know it’s squashed any marginal interest I might have had, too. Me three. I even looked up what kingdom and barony covers where I live. Then the **_Raven_** / **Jane** / **Deth** /et al discussion killed my interest. FWIW to the SCAers arguing against **_Raven_** : I’m thoroughly disgusted by the instances s/he brought up. It’s especially dismaying because they occurred in what would be my kingdom if I joined. There’s a difference between making a mistake and rectifying it (like crediting and rewarding the actual winner when you made a clerical error) and making a mistake and sweeping it under the rug (what they actually did)… then being exasperated that people still find it troubling – particularly when there’s no easy-to-find evidence that the administration et al has actually changed things in the system/bylaws to prevent things like it from happening again. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/182 "2016-01-14T21:51:39Z")
> [@zweisamkeit](#): > > FWIW to the SCAers arguing against **_Raven_** : I’m thoroughly disgusted by the instances s/he brought up. It’s especially dismaying because they occurred in what would be my kingdom if I joined. There’s a difference between making a mistake and rectifying it (like crediting and rewarding the actual winner when you made a clerical error) and making a mistake and sweeping it under the rug (what they actually did)… then being exasperated that people still find it troubling – particularly when there’s no easy-to-find evidence that the administration et al has actually changed things in the system/bylaws to prevent things like it from happening again. Again, let’s drop this discussion in this thread. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![\_Raven](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/_raven/32/20435_2.png) [@\_Raven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Raven)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/183 "2016-01-14T23:22:16Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > So if I don’t want a Laurel, I don’t have to call anyone ‘sir’ or ‘lord’ or do any bowing and scraping to some baron or count or whatnot? That’s not what I’ve heard at all… Replace “if I don’t want a Laurel” with “if I join the [Dark Horde](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Dark_Horde)”, and it might work. (Hm, nice symbol; who designed that?) I don’t want to discourage you and zweisamkeit and the two lady A’s from at least checking out your local groups – which might be very nice and pleasant, who can say? – just because there have been systemic flaws that allow some recurrent patterns of abuse. These may not recur where you are; the people in charge may be alert and opposed to them; and if not, now YOU will be. Forewarned is forearmed. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/184 "2016-01-15T00:35:08Z")
I attended an SCA dance class back in college in the early '90s. Seemed pretty cool - couple of members in period dress taught the rest of us, most of whom were in jeans and tee shirts, an English country dance. No shade thrown that I could discern. But I never went any further, because it seemed to require a significant investment in time and money. And I’m _really_ not good at crafts. Nowadays, I’d love to work on calligraphy, and wear historic dress; but later than the S.C.A.'s remit. Knee-breeches, tricorns, and Spencerian script are more appealing to me than trunk hose, slashed sleeves, and Carolingian minuscule. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/185 "2016-01-15T01:37:27Z")
> [@Aangelica](#): > > I know it’s squashed any marginal interest I might have had, too. I, on the other hand, find the idea of being a scruffy, disreputable, and disrespectful peasant watching all this drama go down hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/186 "2016-01-15T13:57:27Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > So if I don’t want a Laurel, I don’t have to call anyone ‘sir’ or ‘lord’ or do any bowing and scraping to some baron or count or whatnot? Yes. Outside of an actual Royal Court or a dancefloor, I bow and scrape to no-one. The Levellers may be post-accepted-SCA-period, which cuts off at 1600, but _my_ period cuts of at 1650. I use the polite forms of address, but only sometimes. You don’t have to do any of that. But you won’t be popular. I can get away with it because we’re a small Shire, basically. But even if we weren’t, I’ll be damned before I call my wife “Your Excellency” ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/187 "2016-01-15T14:30:56Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yes. > > Outside of an actual Royal Court or a dancefloor, I bow and scrape to no-one. The Levellers may be post-accepted-SCA-period, which cuts off at 1600, but _my_ period cuts of at 1650. I use the polite forms of address, but only sometimes. You don’t have to do any of that. But you won’t be popular. I can get away with it because we’re a small Shire, basically. But even if we weren’t, I’ll be damned before I call my wife “Your Excellency” I’m pretty sure I didn’t post that… > [@Czarcasm](#): > > What about the costs, membership and otherwise? How far can you get if you are rich in knowledge and enthusiasm, but poor in funds? I never paid anything when I was going to dance class. What I did do, when I saw that other people did so, was occasionally bring snacks or treats, to be a contributor. So a big box of donuts or something like that. I kind of want to go back to dance class now! But where they moved it, it’s even further. Apropos of nothing, I used to happily pick up this young man who lived about ten minutes from the dance class. It was fun, he was one of the generous ones who kept offering me his garb\*. Before dance class he and I would have time to chat and sometimes his girlfriend would be there, too, and we all got along pretty well. Then they got into WoW really bad, and then it wasn’t fun anymore - when I got there I felt like I was prying him away from his game, which he really didn’t want to seem to leave. WoW ruined everything for a while, I swear. So many of my friends were lost to it, it almost felt like a death! 🙂 \*I never would have fit. He was so skinny! ---
**Author:** ![\_Raven](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/_raven/32/20435_2.png) [@\_Raven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Raven)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/188 "2016-01-15T14:59:30Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I use the polite forms of address, but only sometimes. Oh, here’s a little bit of irony. In Renaissance English, addressing a single person as “you” (the _plural_ form) _ **is** _ formal and polite, other than lacking a title if they are entitled to one (Your Grace/Highness/Majesty/etc). Using the _singular_ form “thee” or “thou” should be reserved for one’s intimate friend, lover, family member, or God, on the one hand; or one’s social inferiors, on the other. RenFair-style “speaking forsoothly”, however, seems to involve thee-ing and thou-ing everyone in sight, including complete strangers and bare acquaintances of apparently equal or higher rank. … This would have sent tempers flaring and sparked violence in the old days, but of course not at all in the modern Middle Ages. So if you are addressing people as plain “you” when not using titles, you’re still being polite to that extent. If you actually want NOT to be, just “speak forsoothly” and let everyone assume you’re trying to behave “in period”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/189 "2016-01-15T15:58:06Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I’m pretty sure I didn’t post that… Weird - I think I had a multiquote on, then deleted stuff and fucked it up, sorry. That was **Pantastic** [QUOTE=_Raven_] RenFair-style “speaking forsoothly”, however, seems to involve thee-ing and thou-ing everyone in sight [/QUOTE] And isn’t done at all in my group. We do SCA, like I said, as an umbrella for our arts, crafts, drinking and fighting. When we want to LARP, we damn well just LARP. When I said polite forms of address, i meant “m’lord” and “m’lady”. Only time I “prithee” is when I’m singing Pixies songs. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/190 "2016-01-15T17:10:23Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I use the polite forms of address, but only sometimes. You don’t have to do any of that. But you won’t be popular. I’m using colloquial English, so ‘you’ll piss off everyone and will have a hard time doing the stuff you want to do’ means that I would ‘have to’ do it if I were to join the organization. I’m aware that overly strict definitions of ‘have to’ might not apply in this case. And the rules-lawyering style of answer ‘you don’t literally have to, you just will have people sabotaging you and shunning you for it’ is a pretty big turn-off - and exactly the sort of thing I expect from SCA types because I’ve seen it before. " > [@\_Raven](#): > > I don’t want to discourage you and zweisamkeit and the two lady A’s from at least checking out your local groups – which might be very nice and pleasant, who can say? I said before that my impression is not just from this thread, but from talking to people who are enthusiastic about being in the SCA. I don’t hear ‘war stories’ about stuff that I would find interesting, I hear about political maneuverings, revenge over long-held petty grudges, and the like, even though I’m not asking the person for that sort of thing, and am just letting them talk about what they have fun with. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/191 "2016-01-15T17:39:08Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > I’m using colloquial English, so ‘you’ll piss off everyone and will have a hard time doing the stuff you want to do’ means that I would ‘have to’ do it if I were to join the organization. I’m aware that overly strict definitions of ‘have to’ might not apply in this case. And the rules-lawyering style of answer ‘you don’t literally have to, you just will have people sabotaging you and shunning you for it’ is a pretty big turn-off - and exactly the sort of thing I expect from SCA types because I’ve seen it before. ". If you read “won’t be popular” as “being sabotaged and shunned”, that’s your gloss, not mine. I literally mean you won’t be _popular_. Not that you’ll piss everyone off, or be unable to do stuff. Remember, I’m not unique in my attitude, in most every SCA group there will be people like me, who don’t stand on ceremony and just want to do our thing, because medieval stuff is cool. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/192 "2016-01-15T18:52:04Z")
> [@zweisamkeit](#): > > Me three. I even looked up what kingdom and barony covers where I live. Then the **_Raven_** / **Jane** / **Deth** /et al discussion killed my interest. > FWIW to the SCAers arguing against **_Raven_** : I’m thoroughly disgusted by the instances s/he brought up. It’s especially dismaying because they occurred in what would be my kingdom if I joined. There’s a difference between making a mistake and rectifying it (like crediting and rewarding the actual winner when you made a clerical error) and making a mistake and sweeping it under the rug (what they actually did)… then being exasperated that people still find it troubling – particularly when there’s no easy-to-find evidence that the administration et al has actually changed things in the system/bylaws to prevent things like it from happening again. That was\* thirty years ago.\* It no longer works like that- if it ever did. As even Raven agreed- they did credit and reward the actual winner when a clerical error was made (they both were awarded the Pentathlon) . But the other "reward’ in this case was not- and never would be- and could not be- A Laurel. That is not how Peerages are awarded. The competition may be announced as one of\* dozens\* of things that led to a Peerage, sure. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/193 "2016-01-15T18:53:57Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > That, _and_ the numerous people who keep responding to the crazy, trying to refute it, because they can’t just accept that it IS crazy, and move on. > > All the point-by-point posts declaiming some hearsay offense from 30 years ago only merits an eyeroll. It’s the unending responses because SOMEONE IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET that provoke an “ugh” response from me. > > Frankly, you’ve made the SCA look about as appealing as spending time in the comments section on YouTube. It’s hard to ignore when someone posts something that casts a shadow on something you like, especially when it’s totally 100% incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/194 "2016-01-15T19:02:07Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > And isn’t done at all in my group. We do SCA, like I said, as an umbrella for our arts, crafts, drinking and fighting. When we want to LARP, we damn well just LARP. > > When I said polite forms of address, i meant “m’lord” and “m’lady”. Only time I “prithee” is when I’m singing Pixies songs. I am always surprised when someone “Your Excellency”'s\* me or “Master Deth”'s me. Sure, we use M’Lord, M’Lady but _everyone_ is addressed like that (unless it is a Royal on the throne\*\*), the terms are just nicer than "Hey You!. Of course if the name is known we use that- or even a nickname. Mostly they call me (not really but to convert) “Dethy”. - once in a while if there are (say) four of us "Excellencies’ gathered, we make a joke out of it, Alphonse & Gaston like. \*\* Just like we say “Madam Chairwoman”, not “hey You”! And you could spend years and never have to go to Court unless you wanted to. ---
**Author:** ![Pabitel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbce88/32.png) [@Pabitel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pabitel)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/195 "2016-01-15T19:33:08Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > \*1. What is a Laurel? > . . . > 2. What do the Laurels do? > . . . > 3. How long do I have to be in the SCA to become a Laurel? > . . . Yeah, they have lots of flowery stuff like this printed up. None of it means anything. There is no award given by the SCA that is based on merit. All awards are popularity contests and/or awards to sycophants. I was involved for 20+ years. I saw people join who did squat and were peers in less than a year because they were besties with a queen. I saw people who worked like crazy for decades, did great period projects, won competitions and built groups from the ground up who never got their AOA. The best metaphor for the SCA is high school. An award is the equivalent of sitting at the cool kids table. Just like then, it doesn’t matter if you get straight A’s, play first chair trumpet and win the science fair. It’s still the cheerleaders and the football players who get to decide who’s in and who’s out. Play if you want, but unless you either already know a peer or want to suck up for your entire stay, don’t sweat the awards. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/196 "2016-01-15T19:42:35Z")
Pretty much what I heard from people I knew in SCA 25 years ago, and the entire reason I gave it a wide berth. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/197 "2016-01-15T21:36:19Z")
> [@Pabitel](#): > > Yeah, they have lots of flowery stuff like this printed up. > > None of it means anything. There is no award given by the SCA that is based on merit. All awards are popularity contests and/or awards to sycophants. > > I was involved for 20+ years. I saw people join who did squat and were peers in less than a year because they were besties with a queen. I saw people who worked like crazy for decades, did great period projects, won competitions and built groups from the ground up who never got their AOA. I have _never_ seen a Peerage that fast. Yes, there are some awards that are given “at the pleasure of the Crown” which do sometimes get handed out to their close friends. Those are essential meaningless, but fun to have. This is not a secret. ---
**Author:** ![\_Raven](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/_raven/32/20435_2.png) [@\_Raven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Raven)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2016, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/198 "2016-01-16T04:35:29Z")
**A** says, “I saw _x_” and “I saw _y_”. **B** rebuts by saying, “I have _never_ seen _x_ or _y_.” Well, which is more persuasive? **B** may never have turned his head to look, or have kept his eyes covered, or have lived his life in the one Utopian spot on the map, for all we can tell. He is in the position of the farmer saying of the giraffe, “There ain’t so such animal.” It may have seemed like a reasonable response to the _ **first** _ such report he heard (if mine WAS the first)… but to make the same response to the _ **second** _ such report? This at least is not about “30 years ago”… ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2016, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/199 "2016-01-16T07:01:02Z")
> [@\_Raven](#): > > **A** says, “I saw _x_” and “I saw _y_”. > > **B** rebuts by saying, “I have _never_ seen _x_ or _y_.” > > Well, which is more persuasive? > > **B** may never have turned his head to look, or have kept his eyes covered, or have lived his life in the one Utopian spot on the map, for all we can tell. He is in the position of the farmer saying of the giraffe, “There ain’t so such animal.” > > It may have seemed like a reasonable response to the _ **first** _ such report he heard (if mine WAS the first)… but to make the same response to the _ **second** _ such report? > > This at least is not about “30 years ago”… You are saying that X happened _once_, over 30 years ago, in one group. I am saying X never occurred in the last two decades at least. Let me show you by analogy how bad your argument that Lady G deserve a Laurel- because someone else got a Laurel. Remember the Miss Universe Pageant? Harvey announced erroneously that Miss Colombia won, but it was actually Miss Philippines. Miss Colombia can in second- ie “First Runner Up”. Now, many suggested that both get to be Miss Universe. Ok, let us say they went with that. Due to a embarrassing mistake, both the first and second place winner get to share the title. Ok. Then Miss Colombia, due to her varied career on stage, modeling (Miss Sucre, Miss Columbia and yes, Miss World) is offered a lucrative contract to be the spokeswoman for the biggest Spanish language TV network. A great deal. Does then Miss Philippines get to demand she get a lucrative TV contract too? Is it “fair” if Miss Colombia gets a TV contract but Miss Philippines doesnt? Sure- of course it is. ---
**Author:** ![\_Raven](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/_raven/32/20435_2.png) [@\_Raven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Raven)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2016, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/200 "2016-01-16T15:02:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You are saying that X happened _once_, over 30 years ago, in one group. No, in this case I am referring to the immediately preceding conversation between (A) Pábitel and (B) yourself, where there is no indication that “X (or Y) happened _once_, over 30 years ago, in one group.” Read again: > [@Pabitel](#): > > I was involved for 20+ years. I saw people join who did squat and were peers in less than a year because they were besties with a queen. I saw people who worked like crazy for decades, did great period projects, won competitions and built groups from the ground up who never got their AOA. This indicates an ongoing condition, and mentions multiple groups. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945.md?page=11)