# What is your opinion of the S.C.A. as it stands today **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 19, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945 "2013-07-19T15:59:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Jane\_Elliot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jane_elliot/32/6166_2.png) [@Jane\_Elliot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jane_Elliot)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/121 "2016-01-12T16:04:02Z")
> [@\_Raven](#): > > What happened to “… so it’s our job to stand up and try to make it better.”? > > Or has that now become “It’s not in my job description”? Nice of you to take this out of context. My whole statement was that “I’m not a Laurel in their Kingdom so I can’t speak to why someone did or did not get an award, nor why their subsequent service and work has not been recognized.” What I did not say was that I can’t do anything in the future, but that I can’t say whether your spin on their story has any relevancy to why they didn’t get the award. ---
**Author:** ![NVME702-redux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a183cd/32.png) [@NVME702-redux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NVME702-redux)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/122 "2016-01-12T17:47:49Z")
Injustice! Slight! Ridicule! Misunderstanding! Mocking! I’m taking my toys and playing somewhere else!!! Feelings get hurt, often, in the SCA. Some people shrug it off, others carry it FOREVER. All you can manage and be accountable for is YOURSELF. Part of the dream is believing that people will behave at their best, in the sport and with others, but like its been mentioned already, humans are human. My mantra then that I carry over to my life, People don’t always play the way I play. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/123 "2016-01-12T19:10:55Z")
> [@\_Raven](#): > > This amounts to a full confession. What you do and how well (“the quality and volume of your work”) rarely matters; who you know, or rather, who knows you, does. > . Not quite. Yes, who you know can make a difference, but it’s far less of a impact that your actual body of work. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/124 "2016-01-12T19:14:30Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > - First of all, nearly everyone I met had been part of the SCA most of their lives and had lived in the region all of their lives. I already feel like an outsider - I’ve lived here twenty years and I still have nothing on the people that lived here all their lives. I felt like an outsider even more and was (inadvertently) left out of a lot of conversations when people would talk about past things. Not their fault, but our SCA apparently is comprised of people who have been members all their lives. > - Also, the SCA is REALLY PRECISE. Someone up there said the Ren Faire doesn’t allow nylon tents; my experience is totally the opposite. I listened once to two young men at an SCA dance class mocking some poor young lady who had had the temerity to wear nylons to an event…they went on and on for about twenty minutes. The SCA is way more of a stickler to rules. > - Also, the adherence to history is really strict. They have guidelines, but they expect you to do independent research in your local library to get your identity. This rather feels like homework! > - Clothes…you cannot even go to a single event without garb. I’m sorry, I was uncomfortable borrowing someone else’s sweaty garb. > - No Asians. That’s my problem and not theirs, but while there were a few black people, the SCA is still predominantly a white organization. The dance classes, for example, were 100% white…except for me. > - Sewing! You’re expected to sew your own garb. I can sew, but I am not very good. > . 1, This can be true, yes. 2, This doesnt happen very often. Too often, yes, but not often. 1. Never been a issue for me. 2. Sorta. You are required to “make an attempt” at period garb. For ladies this can be a peasant blouse over a full skirt. 3. More our here on the West coast. 4. Nope- you can buy online or there are merchants at events. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/125 "2016-01-12T19:15:32Z")
> [@Jane\_Elliot](#): > > Well, you did single them out, by name even. But what you’re saying is that the SCA is an abusive group because they don’t give out awards the way you think they should. How, if you had the opportunity, would you fix that? Back in 1984, note. ---
**Author:** ![Jane\_Elliot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jane_elliot/32/6166_2.png) [@Jane\_Elliot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jane_Elliot)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/126 "2016-01-12T19:47:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Back in 1984, note. The original handbook was written in 1975, I noticed. ---
**Author:** ![\_Raven](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/_raven/32/20435_2.png) [@\_Raven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Raven)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/127 "2016-01-12T21:03:48Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Back in 1984, note. Yes, contemporaneous with my AI writing to the Soviet Union, another letter-writing memory it brought back. And got as many responses and results, which is to say none at all. (My grandmother had died in front of a Soviet firing squad in 1921, so that was a more particular interest of mine…) ---
**Author:** ![\_Raven](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/_raven/32/20435_2.png) [@\_Raven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Raven)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/128 "2016-01-12T21:25:57Z")
> [@Jane\_Elliot](#): > > The original handbook was written in 1975, I noticed. Feilimidh also taught the original Pages’ School (for which she wrote that handbook) for years, and those in other SCA branches who bought copies started schools there, as Feilimidh had hoped. Her work did not start and stop in 1975. ---
**Author:** ![Jane\_Elliot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jane_elliot/32/6166_2.png) [@Jane\_Elliot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jane_Elliot)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/129 "2016-01-12T21:36:28Z")
It stopped at least 20 years ago as far as I can tell, and she received several awards during the time she was active. She was rewarded, just not as much as you want. ---
**Author:** ![\_Raven](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/_raven/32/20435_2.png) [@\_Raven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Raven)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/130 "2016-01-12T22:01:54Z")
> [@Jane\_Elliot](#): > > But what you’re saying is that the SCA is an abusive group because they don’t give out awards the way you think they should. When it’s not to the people who actually _did the work_ for which the SCA gave (or was willing to give) those awards, yes. That’s clear diversion. You could as easily have dismissed my opinion of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory or another sweatshop employer being an abusive employer because “they didn’t treat employees the way I think they should have”, right? Or that a physically, financially, sexually, emotionally, or verbally abusive husband or boyfriend _was_ abusive because “he didn’t treat his wife or girlfriend the way I thought he should have”? > [@](#): > > How, if you had the opportunity, would you fix that? Given the power? Oh my. You wouldn’t want that at all. I would follow the lead of one previous MidRealm King who, in response to a particularly blatant cliquish Laurel rejection (in effect, “She’s not one of US!”), shut down the MK Order of the Laurels during his reign. Only I’m not sure I would leave the option to re-open it. I would suggest starting over with something new that hasn’t been packed over the past years by cronies and cliques, and trying this time to keep the process clean. ---
**Author:** ![Jane\_Elliot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jane_elliot/32/6166_2.png) [@Jane\_Elliot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jane_Elliot)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/131 "2016-01-12T22:07:36Z")
> [@\_Raven](#): > > When it’s not to the people who actually _did the work_ for which the SCA gave (or was willing to give) those awards, yes. That’s clear diversion. > > You could as easily have dismissed my opinion of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory or another sweatshop employer being an abusive employer because “they didn’t treat employees the way I think they should have”, right? Or that a physically, financially, sexually, emotionally, or verbally abusive husband or boyfriend _was_ abusive because “he didn’t treat his wife or girlfriend the way I thought he should have”? Really? Not getting a specific award is not abuse. Especially when other awards were given. > [@\_Raven](#): > > Given the power? Oh my. You wouldn’t want that at all. I would follow the lead of one previous MidRealm King who, in response to a particularly blatant cliquish Laurel rejection (in effect, “She’s not one of US!”), shut down the MK Order of the Laurels during his reign. Only I’m not sure I would leave the option to re-open it. I would suggest starting over with something new that hasn’t been packed over the past years by cronies and cliques, and trying this time to keep the process clean. No King can close a peerage for good. They are Society wide awards, not Kingdom level awards. To do that you would have to go through the Board of Directors. What I am looking for is how the process should change to keep it ‘clean’. ---
**Author:** ![\_Raven](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/_raven/32/20435_2.png) [@\_Raven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Raven)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/132 "2016-01-12T22:35:43Z")
> [@Jane\_Elliot](#): > > It stopped at least 20 years ago as far as I can tell, and she received several awards during the time she was active. She was rewarded, just not as much as you want. **My** valuation of her work has nothing to do with it. A Laurel was just about to be given – on the strength of writing that Pages’ Handbook – to her plagiarist, when the scandal broke. Had the discovery taken any longer, there would have been the embarrassing issue of whether to revoke the Laurel, which I hope would have been answered in the affirmative. The worth of the work having been established, the question remained: would the true author now receive the _same_ reward the false claimant had been about to receive? And the answer was: **No**. Why not? (As aforesaid:\*\*) “Haven’t you heard? She threatened to sue the SCA!” [I.e. having complained of the copyright violation.] So she was not merely not selected for a reward; she was specifically marked out as someone to NEVER be rewarded thereafter for her teaching and arts – because she had been plagiarized, and complained about it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/133 "2016-01-12T22:46:38Z")
> [@\_Raven](#): > > **My** valuation of her work has nothing to do with it. A Laurel was just about to be given – on the strength of writing that Pages’ Handbook – to her plagiarist, when the scandal broke. Had the discovery taken any longer, there would have been the embarrassing issue of whether to revoke the Laurel, which I hope would have been answered in the affirmative. > > The worth of the work having been established, the question remained: would the true author now receive the _same_ reward the false claimant had been about to receive? And the answer was: **No**. No one gets a Laurel for writing a handbook. Nor for writing\* ten\* handbooks. ---
**Author:** ![Jane\_Elliot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jane_elliot/32/6166_2.png) [@Jane\_Elliot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jane_Elliot)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/134 "2016-01-13T00:36:43Z")
> [@\_Raven](#): > > **My** valuation of her work has nothing to do with it. A Laurel was just about to be given – on the strength of writing that Pages’ Handbook – to her plagiarist, when the scandal broke. Had the discovery taken any longer, there would have been the embarrassing issue of whether to revoke the Laurel, which I hope would have been answered in the affirmative. > > The worth of the work having been established, the question remained: would the true author now receive the _same_ reward the false claimant had been about to receive? And the answer was: **No**. > > Why not? (As aforesaid:\*\*) “Haven’t you heard? She threatened to sue the SCA!” [I.e. having complained of the copyright violation.] > > So she was not merely not selected for a reward; she was specifically marked out as someone to NEVER be rewarded thereafter for her teaching and arts – because she had been plagiarized, and complained about it. That’s just not how it works. Laurels are given for art, not service. The handbook would have been service. The plagiarist was not being given the Laurel for the handbook. You are completely mistaken about that. ---
**Author:** ![\_Raven](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/_raven/32/20435_2.png) [@\_Raven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Raven)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/135 "2016-01-13T00:37:27Z")
> [@Jane\_Elliot](#): > > Not getting a specific award is not abuse. Especially when other awards were given. Yes, let’s go ahead and give a peerage for the Handbook to that plagiarist, then, and let the actual writer of the work be content with the Willow. That’s _parity_ for you. [Quoth Humpty Dumpty.] > [@](#): > > No King can close a peerage for good. I wasn’t assuming I’d be King. To have unspecified power, yes. > [@](#): > > What I am looking for is how the process should change to keep it ‘clean’. (1) Think in terms of Civil Service reform vs. patronage jobs, and the corruption issues that plague the “real world” you keep bringing up when cronyism and cliques are not ruthlessly purged from ongoing administrations whether state or federal. (2) If the Laurels were not allowed to merely (as it were) “sit on their Laurels” but got handed the assignments to do the court scrolls and other ongoing work of the Kingdom, they would have personal incentive to go out, find, train, and then select as their Peers those who can best match their work quality and thus share the Order’s workload. (This was the idea behind my chartering the MK’s Royal Guild of Calligraphers and Scribes, since as the first MK Royal Calligrapher all I got to hear or see of events was “Oh, good, Raven, you’re here, we need 12 new scrolls by Court!” and the royal gossip of the back room while I engrossed. Those with Laurel ambitions were too busy shmoozing out among the nobles to help write scrolls during the event. But assistant scribes who hadn’t even attended could at least provide me with pre-painted borders, pre-calligraphed headers, and some boilerplate texts. … After hand-painting the MK arms some hundreds of times, I did present the Crown with a rubber stamp of the Kingdom Seal.) (3) The current incentive for Peers to recruit cronies is to gain _voting blocs_ for the recruitment of still more like-minded members, us vs. them, within that Peerage. Secret balloting with an all-at-once count has the advantage over open balloting that no “ward boss” or “party whip” can tell who has or has not paid back favors. (4) As an aside, the [Northshield Bardic College](http://www.minstrel.com/ncb/charter.htm) structure de-incentivizes corruption by leaving nothing to cronyize or clique for. The Bardic Madness is each for each, and nobody “ranks” above anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/136 "2016-01-13T03:14:09Z")
> [@\_Raven](#): > > Y > (3) The current incentive for Peers to recruit cronies is to gain _voting blocs_ for the recruitment of still more like-minded members, us vs. them, within that Peerage. Secret balloting with an all-at-once count has the advantage over open balloting that no “ward boss” or “party whip” can tell who has or has not paid back favors. > . Umm, perhaps in other Kingdoms, but I have never sat on a Peerage council that was even _remotely_ like that. ---
**Author:** ![\_Raven](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/_raven/32/20435_2.png) [@\_Raven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Raven)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/137 "2016-01-13T09:34:34Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Umm, perhaps in other Kingdoms, but I have never sat on a Peerage council that was even _remotely_ like that. Nor heard eyewitness descriptions of Midrealm Laurel meetings from the early 1980s on, I take it, nor why that Order was shut down for a reign. No shame in not having been everywhere nor in nor having heard everything. The trick is to keep listening, and not cover up your ears when you do hear something you don’t like. Remarkable thing about songs like “The S.C.A. Game” and “The Midrealm Laurels” is the reaction they draw from SCA “establishment” even far from the Midrealm, almost never “That’s terrible and should be changed” but ranging from a defensive dismissal of the thesis to a vengeful hostility toward the writer. (One lady who’d listened to such fulminations [offline] later greeted me in person with a cheery “I’m so happy to meet the Devil Incarnate!”) > [@Jane\_Elliot](#): > > The plagiarist was not being given the Laurel for the handbook. You are completely mistaken about that. I have been mistaken in my life… but if the Laurel was _ **not** _ being given for the Handbook, why then was the offer _withdrawn_ when her authorship was falsified? In fact, if she already had “the quality and volume of work” needed to justify a Laurel, _ **why did she bother** _ to type up someone else’s entire Handbook and put her own name on it as author? If it was, as she defended, such mental distress that she was _incapable_ of understanding the issues involved, how then would she have been _capable_ of producing all that “quality and volume of work”? Your explanation leaves too much unexplained. [QUOTE=Various] Back in 1984… | It stopped at least 20 years ago as far as I can tell… [/QUOTE] Suitable objections if injustice diminishes with time. But the maxim is “Justice delayed is justice denied” – the years without recognition will never be regained, just as for an unjustly convicted prisoner the years without freedom will never be regained. Lacking a time machine to do _undelayed_ justice, at the very least you could have the decency not to point to the existing delay as a reason not to attempt any justice at all. ---
**Author:** ![\_Raven](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/_raven/32/20435_2.png) [@\_Raven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Raven)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/138 "2016-01-13T09:44:51Z")
“… nor in not having heard everything.” ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/139 "2016-01-13T15:29:55Z")
Wait, I missed this - this is all about something that happened in _1984_? Fuck, and people think \*I \*hold on to things… IMO this has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this thread, which prominently features the word “today” in it. ---
**Author:** ![Jane\_Elliot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jane_elliot/32/6166_2.png) [@Jane\_Elliot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jane_Elliot)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945/140 "2016-01-13T15:38:20Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Wait, I missed this - this is all about something that happened in _1984_? > > Fuck, and people think \*I \*hold on to things… > > IMO this has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this thread, which prominently features the word “today” in it. Google is your friend, especially when someone’s name is so handily provided. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-s-c-a-as-it-stands-today/663945.md?page=8)