# What is your view of doctor Miguel Echeverry book on subculture? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 16, 2017, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-view-of-doctor-miguel-echeverry-book-on-subculture/796444 "2017-09-16T01:39:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2017, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-view-of-doctor-miguel-echeverry-book-on-subculture/796444/21 "2017-09-19T00:02:01Z")
My understanding Social deviance is person who breaks the social norms, culture, rules, laws, way people do things and of how a individual will act in society. There is lack of conformity to the group and deviance of inappropriate conduct of social norms and culture of the group norms. Some examples of social deviance like skipping school, running away from home, going out partying, speeding, drinking in public, being late for work, dying your hair purple, having a mohawk hair, stealing, wearing pajama pants to work, going nude, long scraggly messy hair style, not working, cheating and crime so on. The causes social deviance a lack of social skills growing up and bad parenting. ---
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2017, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-view-of-doctor-miguel-echeverry-book-on-subculture/796444/22 "2017-09-19T00:06:16Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > My take: > > Social deviance is taking attitudes and performing acts that are against the social norms. > Counter culture is a subculture in which actions and attitudes that would be seen as deviant in the larger culture are not seen as deviant. > > Neither are inherently immoral or otherwise harmful, and in fact their existence is necessary for a vibrant evolving society. > Neither in and of themselves represent psychological pathology (In particular there is nothing psychologically pathological about Hippies), but it is possible that a psychological pathology might lead one into taking socially deviant attitudes and actions (such as murdering people because your demon possessed dog told you to). My understanding is counterculture feel alienated with culture or conflict with culture and want to replace the culture with their own set culture and rules. Where social deviance don’t want to replace any thing or have own set counterculture. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2017, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-view-of-doctor-miguel-echeverry-book-on-subculture/796444/23 "2017-09-19T13:57:45Z")
> [@sweat209](#): > > My understanding is counterculture feel alienated with culture or conflict with culture and want to replace the culture with their own set culture and rules. Wrong again. Punks doesn’t want _everyone_ to become a punk - that would be deeply, deeply uncool. Same with skaters, ravers, metalheads, goths, etc. ---
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2017, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-view-of-doctor-miguel-echeverry-book-on-subculture/796444/24 "2017-09-19T20:01:34Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Wrong again. > > Punks doesn’t want _everyone_ to become a punk - that would be deeply, deeply uncool. Same with skaters, ravers, metalheads, goths, etc. Wrong again. Yea wrong again Hippies find hippies and join their group. Punks find punks and join their group. EMO and gothic find their group and join their group. They remove them self from main stream culture and group and find group two their liking the counterculture they value and like. A counterculture is no longer a counterculture when it is minority. What book have you read. ---
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2017, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-view-of-doctor-miguel-echeverry-book-on-subculture/796444/25 "2017-09-19T20:02:36Z")
Miguel Echeverry may have been right if the hippies never had culture no group appearance and group ideas, group bond, group dress in how you dress and look so on. If everyone started dressing really strange and not looking after them self than it be social deviance not counterculture. Hippies wanted to look like hippies so they where conforming to their culture and finding people like them self. People still conform to counterculture it that they have own culture, norms, appearance and way of doing things they like. If kid does not go to school, dress really strange, don’t shower, look after them self and start doing strange things but join no group or bond thus no counterculture group than Miguel Echeverry may be right. No conformity but social deviance. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2017, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-view-of-doctor-miguel-echeverry-book-on-subculture/796444/26 "2017-09-19T21:33:04Z")
> [@sweat209](#): > > Wrong again. > > Yea wrong again > > Hippies find hippies and join their group. > > Punks find punks and join their group. > > EMO and gothic find their group and join their group. > > They remove them self from main stream culture and group and find group two their liking the counterculture they value and like. > > A counterculture is no longer a counterculture when it is minority. > > What book have you read. Do you know any people in these groups? Your description of them isn’t even wrong, it’s incoherent nonsense. Hippies and punks and metalheads live in mainstream culture and have to deal with it. Also, as **Steken** notes, they know their lifestyle isn’t for everyone, and don’t expect or want everyone to join in. Also, it’s mostly about trivialities: music and fashion for the most part. Also gossiping about other people in the local scene. Politically, they’re all over the map, though politics isn’t really a strong point, beyond an annoyance with the more conformist and bland aspects of mainstream society. I’ve known conservative–well, mostly libertarian–hippies and punks as well as leftists and anarchists. But it’s mostly about having a good time. But even hippies and punks have to find a way to pay the bills, and most of them have friends outside the scene. ---
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2017, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-view-of-doctor-miguel-echeverry-book-on-subculture/796444/27 "2017-09-19T23:10:36Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Do you know any people in these groups? Your description of them isn’t even wrong, it’s incoherent nonsense. Hippies and punks and metalheads live in mainstream culture and have to deal with it. Also, as **Steken** notes, they know their lifestyle isn’t for everyone, and don’t expect or want everyone to join in. Also, it’s mostly about trivialities: music and fashion for the most part. Also gossiping about other people in the local scene. Politically, they’re all over the map, though politics isn’t really a strong point, beyond an annoyance with the more conformist and bland aspects of mainstream society. I’ve known conservative–well, mostly libertarian–hippies and punks as well as leftists and anarchists. But it’s mostly about having a good time. But even hippies and punks have to find a way to pay the bills, and most of them have friends outside the scene. There are Innovation people, Conformists people, Ritualisma people and Rebellion people. 1. **Innovation** is a response generated by our culture’s emphasis on wealth and the lack of opportunities to get rich. Which causes people to be “innovators” by engaging in stealing, crime or selling drugs. Innovators accept society’s goals but reject socially acceptable means of achieving them. 2. **Conformists** accept society’s goals and the socially acceptable means of achieving them. 3. **Ritualism** refers to the inability to reach a cultural goal thus embracing the rules to the point where the people in question lose sight of their larger goals in order to feel respectable. **Ritualists** reject society’s goals but accept society’s institutionalised means. Ritualists are most commonly found in dead-end, repetitive jobs, where they are unable to achieve society’s goals but still adhere to society’s means of achievement and social norms. 1. **Retreatism** is the rejection of both cultural goals and means, letting the person in question “drop out”. Retreatists reject the society’s goals and the legitimate means to achieve them. And true deviants, as they commit acts of deviance to achieve things that do not always go along with society’s values. 2. **Rebellion** is somewhat similar to retreatism:eek::eek::eek::eek: because the people in question also reject both the cultural goals and means, but they go one step further to a what called a counterculture that supports other social orders that already exist (rule breaking). Rebels reject society’s goals and legitimate means to achieve them and instead creates new goals and means to replace those of society yes creating not only new goals to achieve but also new ways to achieve these goals. What are some of the causes that cause some people to rebel and not conform to social norms? usually it’s a disconnect from society itself, when a person breaks from social norms a number of factors contribute to the disconnect. first and foremost is a lack of communal reinforcement of social norms. this occurs in places where a person has less pressure to conform to the social norms like larger cities where close knit communities are less common and because of the influx and mixing of both traditional views and new ideas from various cultures, groups,ideas people are more open to exploring different social paths and social norms. the second factor is a dissatisfaction with the social norms often developing at an early age, most notably the teenage years the teens years and either fades away into adulthood or becomes ingrained in the individual. when a dissatisfaction continues into adult hood it usually doesn’t amount to much unless the individual lives in a large city where they can easily access others with similar concerns about the social norms and bonds together with them. when this happens it becomes known as a subculture which is an minority. The next step is through higher education at the college level where people that people were apart of tend to dissolve back into a social melting pot but individuals will still have a tendency to tribalize and form closer relationships with like minded people rather than with those that have different views. if these views are not filtered out by the group, they too get reinforced and deepen over time. some examples of this are the black panthers or the hippies of the 1960’s. the groups do not always become violent but begin to break from social norms in an extreme manner. some individuals within that group can experience a full social disconnect where they reject all social norms and begin to accept only the social norms of the group. this has caused groups like PETA, westboro, baptist church, the KKK, and the manson family so on to emerge. Others like a discontent of society or intranquility feel need to counterculture. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2017, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-view-of-doctor-miguel-echeverry-book-on-subculture/796444/28 "2017-09-20T04:41:33Z")
No. None of that is true. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2017, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-view-of-doctor-miguel-echeverry-book-on-subculture/796444/29 "2017-09-20T12:46:38Z")
> [@sweat209](#): > > A counterculture is no longer a counterculture when it is minority. Wrong again, of course, since every counterculture is, by definition, a minority. By the way, I have no idea how your ramblings in post # 24 answers my previous post, i.e # 23. Have you understood or have you not understood that people in subcultures - we mentioned punks, goths, metalheads, etc. - are _totally fine_ with being a minority, and have no interest whatsoever in seeing their subculture break out into the mainstream? No one’s losing any sleep over the fact that Nyogthaeblisz aren’t opening for Katy Perry, or that the latest Cultes Des Ghoules ripper isn’t all over MTV. The aficionados tend to be quite content with the fact that, say, collecting Polish black metal cassette tapes from the mid-1980’s is not quite everybody’s cup of tea. ---
**Author:** ![JackieLikesVariety](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackielikesvariety/32/296_2.png) [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2017, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-view-of-doctor-miguel-echeverry-book-on-subculture/796444/30 "2017-09-20T13:01:02Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > No. None of that is true. sums it up for me ---
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2017, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-view-of-doctor-miguel-echeverry-book-on-subculture/796444/31 "2017-09-20T22:40:42Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > No. None of that is true. > [@Steken](#): > > Wrong again, of course, since every counterculture is, by definition, a minority. > > By the way, I have no idea how your ramblings in post # 24 answers my previous post, i.e # 23. Have you understood or have you not understood that people in subcultures - we mentioned punks, goths, metalheads, etc. - are _totally fine_ with being a minority, and have no interest whatsoever in seeing their subculture break out into the mainstream? > > No one’s losing any sleep over the fact that Nyogthaeblisz aren’t opening for Katy Perry, or that the latest Cultes Des Ghoules ripper isn’t all over MTV. The aficionados tend to be quite content with the fact that, say, collecting Polish black metal cassette tapes from the mid-1980’s is not quite everybody’s cup of tea. That is your opinion I will stick to my textbooks I learn in school as source over your opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-view-of-doctor-miguel-echeverry-book-on-subculture/796444/32 "2017-09-21T06:38:12Z")
You do you, friend. You do you. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-view-of-doctor-miguel-echeverry-book-on-subculture/796444/33 "2017-09-23T02:48:13Z")
Jeez!! What’s he taking?? ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-view-of-doctor-miguel-echeverry-book-on-subculture/796444/34 "2017-09-23T05:13:12Z")
Are y’all helping someone with their homework? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-view-of-doctor-miguel-echeverry-book-on-subculture/796444/35 "2017-09-23T17:21:38Z")
> [@sweat209](#): > > That is your opinion I will stick to my textbooks I learn in school as source over your opinion. And I’ll stick with my years of experience in a couple of scenes over your text books. Seriously, I’m guessing you are trying to fit subcultures into your “rebellion” category, but people are too complex for that. Some people in, say, the DC punk scene were horribly dysfunctional but others were not and held down jobs and started families. > [@ExTank](#): > > Are y’all helping someone with their homework? I don’t think so. If we are we are helping him to fail. Seriously, **sweat** , when the test comes just regurgitate whatever your textbooks say, even though they appear to be profoundly misleading. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-view-of-doctor-miguel-echeverry-book-on-subculture/796444/36 "2017-09-23T17:31:34Z")
> [@sweat209](#): > > My understanding Social deviance is person who breaks the social norms, culture, rules, laws, way people do things and of how a individual will act in society. There is lack of conformity to the group and deviance of inappropriate conduct of social norms and culture of the group norms. > > Some examples of social deviance like skipping school, running away from home, going out partying, speeding, drinking in public, being late for work, dying your hair purple, having a mohawk hair, stealing, wearing pajama pants to work, going nude, long scraggly messy hair style, not working, cheating and crime so on. > > The causes social deviance a lack of social skills growing up and bad parenting. Social deviance can also include going to school. For example, my own grandmother was a social deviant for getting a Business Degree at a time when women attending Commerce School was considered abnormal (she was part of the first year to include female students). Was the board of the Commerce School mentally ill when they decided to accept women? What about the schools Marie Curie attended? I can assure you that at the time it wasn’t normal for Polish students to move to Paris to attend university. Pretty much anybody who has been a pioneer in his field has broken rules. Hard to come up with anything new if all you do is repeat what we already know. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-view-of-doctor-miguel-echeverry-book-on-subculture/796444/37 "2017-09-23T17:35:54Z")
> [@sweat209](#): > > That is your opinion I will stick to my textbooks I learn in school as source over your opinion. Hilariously, though, the only book you’ve referenced is one that no one here, including you, have read. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-view-of-doctor-miguel-echeverry-book-on-subculture/796444/38 "2017-09-23T17:58:38Z")
I think it’s amusing that the OP assumes that there is anyone on Earth who is \*not \*part of one subculture or another. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-view-of-doctor-miguel-echeverry-book-on-subculture/796444.md?page=1)