# What isn't the matter with Kansas? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2014, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-isnt-the-matter-with-kansas/704398 "2014-11-12T01:39:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-isnt-the-matter-with-kansas/704398/61 "2015-01-17T17:36:43Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > [https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/kansas-governor-seeks-tax-increases-221839354.html](https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/kansas-governor-seeks-tax-increases-221839354.html) > > Well lookie here. Governor Brownback just asked the legislature for massive tax increases to make up for a huge budget shortfall. Is anyone other than ITR Champion surprised? > > Any comments from the OP? It’s almost as if water flowing downhill eventually reaches the bottom. Who knew? Kudos to Brownback for having the balls to do it, though. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-isnt-the-matter-with-kansas/704398/62 "2015-01-17T17:50:02Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Kudos to Brownback for having the balls to do it, though. I’ll give Brownback credit for that. He made a mistake but he’s willing to try to correct it. A lot of politicians would have just retired before the consequences of their bad decisions sunk in and left them to their successor to deal with. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-isnt-the-matter-with-kansas/704398/63 "2015-01-17T19:39:56Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > [https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/kansas-governor-seeks-tax-increases-221839354.html](https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/kansas-governor-seeks-tax-increases-221839354.html) > > Well lookie here. Governor Brownback just asked the legislature for massive tax increases to make up for a huge budget shortfall. Is anyone other than ITR Champion surprised? I’m not sure what you want me to comment on. Brownback is asking for tax raises only on cigarettes and beer, and pushing back the timetable for some income tax cuts. So? The fact remains that the Kansas economy is doing a lot better than many other states, particularly states with higher taxes. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-isnt-the-matter-with-kansas/704398/64 "2015-01-17T20:06:16Z")
[Republicans in Kansas.](https://warosu.org/data/tg/img/0325/96/1402090800633.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-isnt-the-matter-with-kansas/704398/65 "2015-01-17T20:32:20Z")
Indeed. But cherry picking which taxes count seems silly. Brownback may have lowered taxes, but it’s likely he’s just redistributing the burden. Kansas comes in 12th for [sales and consumption tax burden](http://www.ibtimes.com/united-states-taxation-2014-here-are-best-worst-states-consumption-taxes-total-tax-burden-1562376)out of the several states (Jan 1, 2014 data). Kansas is also solidly in the middle of the pack for [overall per-capita tax burden](http://www.statemaster.com/graph/eco_tot_tax_bur-total-tax-burden-per-capita)at #28. Again, if this were some grand experiment the state could have committed more toward it. Now with Brownback requesting that some consumption taxes be raised and that some of his enacted cuts be delayed it’s not building confidence. If anything, what the [experiment has indicated](http://www.kansascity.com/opinion/editorials/article762538.html) - it’s early times, I know - is that a state government can enact tax cuts and see a short term increase. However, water again flows downhill and eventually reaches the bottom. If the experiment were serious, the Kansas state government would have cut services commensurate with the cuts made and no increases - nor delays in cuts - would be needed. Certainly not in an expanding national economy. In short, there’s good reason to believe that Brownback’s experiment either didn’t work or wasn’t followed through on properly. It’s the age-old American question: no one wants taxes but no one wants their services cut. American’s want $1.25 worth of government at a $1.00 price. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-isnt-the-matter-with-kansas/704398/66 "2015-01-18T01:30:48Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Look on the bright side OP, you’ve found a way to make liberals care about deficits. > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Liberals are the only ones who have cared about deficits in my lifetime. Republicans talk about them, and promise that their policies will bring them down, but it doesn’t actually happen. It’s also perhaps worth noting that there’s a big difference between a national deficit and a state deficit. States can’t run a huge deficit without consequence the way the country as a whole can. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-isnt-the-matter-with-kansas/704398/67 "2015-01-18T01:47:12Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I’m not sure what you want me to comment on. Brownback is asking for tax raises only on cigarettes and beer, … Fortunately, there are a miniscule number of smokers and beer drinkers in Kansas who will protest this raise. Though, in that case, can’t see it gaining much money. > [@](#): > > … and pushing back the timetable for some income tax cuts. Ah ha! > [@](#): > > So? So? So Brownback has to raise taxes to cover the spending that he’s already cut to shreds. Really, I don’t get it. Do Republican office holders really believe that their constituents want no government services at all? Do Republican voters really believe that they can pay no taxes and still get the government services they want? I just don’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-isnt-the-matter-with-kansas/704398/68 "2015-01-18T03:32:23Z")
And it is “interesting” that, having slashed taxes for the richest citizens, his “adjustment” taxes fall squarely on the poorer. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-isnt-the-matter-with-kansas/704398/69 "2015-01-18T04:37:59Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Really, I don’t get it. Do Republican office holders really believe that their constituents want no government services at all? Do Republican voters really believe that they can pay no taxes and still get the government services they want? I just don’t get it. Matt Taibbi may have uncovered the answers when he was reporting from Tea Party gatherings. They want their services, but they want them paid for with cuts from any services going to “those people” who live in cities and have too many children and sit around on the stoop all day jive talkin’ and don’t work and… ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-isnt-the-matter-with-kansas/704398/70 "2015-01-31T17:26:12Z")
Here is an article from Fox Business, hardly a liberal source, saying that Brownback’s policies are a failure. [http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2015/01/30/kansas-taxes-47m-less-than-expected-in-january-complicating-already-strained/](http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2015/01/30/kansas-taxes-47m-less-than-expected-in-january-complicating-already-strained/) ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-isnt-the-matter-with-kansas/704398/71 "2015-02-06T03:05:18Z")
It keeps getting worse. [http://news.yahoo.com/kansas-moves-close-budget-shortfall-following-tax-cuts-011158748--election.html](http://news.yahoo.com/kansas-moves-close-budget-shortfall-following-tax-cuts-011158748--election.html) ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-isnt-the-matter-with-kansas/704398/72 "2015-02-15T05:52:00Z")
Best Goddamn Fajitas I’ve ever had were in Topeka, Kansas. So that’s not wrong. They had a pretty cool airplane museum there, too. Damn, I’m bored. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-isnt-the-matter-with-kansas/704398/73 "2015-04-01T00:57:38Z")
[http://news.yahoo.com/kansas-collected-11m-less-taxes-expected-month-231810898.html](http://news.yahoo.com/kansas-collected-11m-less-taxes-expected-month-231810898.html) It keeps getting better and better. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-isnt-the-matter-with-kansas/704398/74 "2015-04-01T01:32:37Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > It’s also perhaps worth noting that there’s a big difference between a national deficit and a state deficit. States can’t run a huge deficit without consequence the way the country as a whole can. It’s also worth remembering a state doesn’t get to create its own currency. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-isnt-the-matter-with-kansas/704398/75 "2015-04-01T01:50:55Z")
They don’t have nuclear weapons, either, except for Texas. Wait, you guys didn’t know? ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-isnt-the-matter-with-kansas/704398/76 "2015-04-02T02:22:25Z")
Gambler’s fallacy, same reason people keep low performing stock ---
**Author:** ![pbbth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f9ae1b/32.png) [@pbbth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pbbth)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2015, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-isnt-the-matter-with-kansas/704398/77 "2015-04-05T01:27:37Z")
Now there are public schools closing early because they [can’t afford to stay open](http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/kansas-school-districts-close-early-after-tax-cut-experiment). ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2015, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-isnt-the-matter-with-kansas/704398/78 "2015-04-05T09:01:53Z")
I know nothing about Kansas, except for once reading an article that proved it was indeed “flatter than a pancake.” I know nothing about Brownback except that, to mitigate his disbelief in evolution, he once wrote a letter to the N.Y. Times acknowledging intra-species variation, as seen with dog-breeding. But I do know common sense, and OP makes a few ommon errors. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > If the United States is better off than North Korea, it’s because Obama and his underlings do a better job than Kim Jong-un and his underlings. No. This ignores the concept of inertia. Position isn’t velocity let alone acceleration. This fallacy pervades OP’s cites and arguments. Cut road-repair budgets in half and potholes don’t suddenly double – they just start gradually increasing in number. Cut education in half and high school seniors, who studied for 11 years with the old budget, don’t suddenly get half as knowledgeable. Instead the ill effects emerge only gradually (and can be repaired only gradually). This is why, to really address OP’s question, it is necessary to make careful comparisons of the _rates of chhange_ between Kansas and its peers. Yet OP doesn’t understand that: > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I don’t see why I should care about what states are the best “peers” of Kansas. I think what OP means here is that it is better to take whatever comparison, however inappropriate statistically, is best for pleading his side of a political argument. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2015, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-isnt-the-matter-with-kansas/704398/79 "2015-04-05T11:16:09Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > To me it seems fairly straightforward. People don’t vote based on what’s best for the state government’s bottom line. They vote based on what’s best for themselves, their families, and those close to them, for the most part. Actually, it would appear that people vote along ideological lines, even if that ideology is in conflict with their actual best interests. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Of course for someone [as rich as Paul Krugman](http://freebeacon.com/blog/poor-paul-krugman/), it may be difficult to understand the pocketbook issues of ordinary voters. It may be hard to grasp the fact that for many people, being allowed to keep one percent more of one’s money means better food and clothing, a better home, a better car, and other improvements to one’s standard of living. But the voters of Kansas seem to understand. But he does understand economics a lot better than you or I. And I don’t need a BA in econ from Yale and a PhD from MIT to understand that a 1% increase in disposable income can easily be offset by reduced purchasing power and lack of economic opportunity caused by bad policy decisions. IOW, allowing to keep one percent more of your money doesn’t necessarily mean better food, clothing, home, car and whatnot. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2015, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-isnt-the-matter-with-kansas/704398/80 "2015-04-05T13:19:09Z")
Keep 1% more? A [recent Kansas law](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/04/kansas-welfare_n_7001116.html) requires that Kansan welfare recipients pay over 3% of their benefits in bank charges. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-isnt-the-matter-with-kansas/704398.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-isnt-the-matter-with-kansas/704398.md?page=5)