# What justification is there for eating meat? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 7, 2017, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659 "2017-07-07T00:25:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/181 "2017-07-12T01:22:58Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > - Fuck suffering, bacon is tasty.\* This assumes suffering. Why is it assumed? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/182 "2017-07-12T04:39:52Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > As somebody else noted upthread, “justify” implies meat eating is, on some level, wrong. It is neither right nor wrong. … I disagree. I think that eating meat is obviously “wrong on some level”. I say this as an avowed carnivore. And I think that’s why meat eaters are defensive, and vegans are (often) obnoxious. Anyone who has spent any time around meat animals can tell that most of the mammals we eat are capable of feeling pain and fear. And that’s likely true of the birds we eat. And it may well be true of vertebrate fish and shellfish and cephalopods. And all those creatures strive to avoid things that will kill them. Or at least, things they evolved to recognize as threats. Eating meat is at least likely to cause suffering. But, unlike murder or rape, we are designed to eat meat. Most people prefer sex with an enthusiastic partner. Iirc, the army had a lot of trouble in Vietnam because soldiers who saw the enemy were reluctant to shoot. Penn Gillette speaks for most when he says that he rapes and murders exactly as much as wants to, which is never. But even confirmed vegans like to eat things that taste meaty and have a nutritional profile similar to meat. So we are left in the awkward position that something most people want to do is morally dicey. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/183 "2017-07-12T04:43:33Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I disagree. I think that eating meat is obviously “wrong on some level”. I say this as an avowed carnivore. And I think that’s why meat eaters are defensive, and vegans are (often) obnoxious. Meat eaters are defensive when attacked, like anybody else who isn’t dead by now. Vegans and vegetarians also get defensive when someone attacks their eating habits. And gamers when someone says “OMG _how_ can YOU _like_ that?” And the religious when someone says “religion is all a bunch of crap”. And… ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/184 "2017-07-12T04:44:10Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Eating meat is at least likely to cause suffering. How? Are you saying that cows anticipate and somehow understand that the ramp they are walking up ends in a bolt to the head? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/185 "2017-07-12T14:09:32Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > How? Are you saying that cows anticipate and somehow understand that the ramp they are walking up ends in a bolt to the head? In a perfectly run meat production, perhaps not. I believe most US meat production involves fear and pain in the animals. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/186 "2017-07-12T15:36:07Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > In a perfectly run meat production, perhaps not. I believe most US meat production involves fear and pain in the animals. I gonna need a cite for that. Remembering that you said “most”. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Clawdio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d07c76/32.png) [@Clawdio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clawdio)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/187 "2017-07-12T15:37:51Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Meat eaters are defensive when attacked, like anybody else who isn’t dead by now. Vegans and vegetarians also get defensive when someone attacks their eating habits. And gamers when someone says “OMG _how_ can YOU _like_ that?” And the religious when someone says “religion is all a bunch of crap”. And… I guess I don’t understand why meat eaters take it as a personal attack. It’s just a thought exercise. If I start a thread saying “I don’t think Zelda: Breath of the Wild is a good game, if you disagree please justify your opinion”, you wouldn’t get 20 replies from Zelda fans saying " I don’t have to justify why I like it, I don’t answer to you, I’m going to play it tonight, and for every time you say you don’t like it, I’m going to play it more!" ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/188 "2017-07-12T15:43:25Z")
> [@Clawdio](#): > > I guess I don’t understand why meat eaters take it as a personal attack. It’s just a thought exercise. > > If I start a thread saying “I don’t think Zelda: Breath of the Wild is a good game, if you disagree please justify your opinion”, you wouldn’t get 20 replies from Zelda fans saying " I don’t have to justify why I like it, I don’t answer to you, I’m going to play it tonight, and for every time you say you don’t like it, I’m going to play it more!" Why are you quoting my post indicating that everybody (not just meat eaters) gets defensive when their personal habits get attacked, but go back to focusing on meat eaters as if they were the only ones who get defensive in that situation? And the OP is more along the lines of _Given that there are superb games such as Zelda: Breath of the Wild, what justification is there for consuming any other kind of entertainment, other than “I find it entertaining?” Should we allow disgraceful working conditions to continue in the entertainment industry just in order to produce something which most people happen to enjoy?_ ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/189 "2017-07-12T15:58:45Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I gonna need a cite for that. Remembering that you said “most”. > > Regards, > Shodan My cite is post 185. I said “I believe”. I am the international expert on what I believe. Regards, Puzzlegal ---
**Author:** ![Clawdio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d07c76/32.png) [@Clawdio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clawdio)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/190 "2017-07-12T16:35:34Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Why are you quoting my post indicating that everybody (not just meat eaters) gets defensive when their personal habits get attacked, but go back to focusing on meat eaters as if they were the only ones who get defensive in that situation? > > And the OP is more along the lines of > > _Given that there are superb games such as Zelda: Breath of the Wild, what justification is there for consuming any other kind of entertainment, other than “I find it entertaining?” Should we allow disgraceful working conditions to continue in the entertainment industry just in order to produce something which most people happen to enjoy?_ I quoted your post because I was still thinking about the string of posts above that address the idea that in threads about eating meat there seems to be a lot more vitriol and defensiveness than a thread about any other moral discussion. Further, I think that even with an OP as you suggest, you would get no where near the level of defensiveness and unwillingness to engage as in a thread about meat eating. Maybe everyone else moved on from that line of the discussion, but it still sticks with me as an interesting phenomenon. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/191 "2017-07-12T17:13:44Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > My cite is post 185. I said “I believe”. I am the international expert on what I believe. > > Regards, > Puzzlegal That’s an argument from authority, and you haven’t established your credentials. 😃 Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/192 "2017-07-12T17:28:07Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > Given the fact that humans can get by just fine without any meat or animal products in their diet, and the amount of cheaply available grains, vegetables, fruits and legumes everywhere, what justification is there for consuming animal products, other than"it tastes good?" Should we be breeding animals into existence to live in disgraceful conditions and then have them slaughtered for our pleasure? It’s better for the environment to eat a moderate amount of meat. It’s better productivity, we can feed more people. Altho indeed, for example cattle are often fattened on grain (and this can be argued to be wasteful) they can be grazed 100% on land which is more or less useless to agriculture. Pigs and chickens can be feed waste. Sheep and goats are almost always grazec. > **[Meat: A Benign Extravagance: Fairlie, Simon, Logsdon, Gene: 9781603583244:...](https://www.amazon.com/Meat-Benign-Extravagance-Simon-Fairlie/dp/1603583246)** > > Buy Meat: A Benign Extravagance on Amazon.com ✓ FREE SHIPPING on qualified orders [http://www.mofga.org/Publications/MaineOrganicFarmerGardener/Winter20112012/Critique/tabid/2057/Default.aspx](http://www.mofga.org/Publications/MaineOrganicFarmerGardener/Winter20112012/Critique/tabid/2057/Default.aspx) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/193 "2017-07-12T17:30:24Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > One objection is that farming meat is a terrible waste of resources and a horribly inefficient way of producing food. At the same time, many people enjoy eating it. Hence a growing interest in developing cheap synthetic meat. It can be, if cattle are fed grain. But first of all, you dont have to . Next feed corn has a yield of about ten times that of sweet corn. So, yes, you have a waste factor there abut since you can grow ten times as much feed corn than sweet corn, the difference is not high. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/194 "2017-07-12T17:33:06Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Humans, like other apes, are carnivores. > > But militant vegetarianism is silly. It attempts to lay a guilt trip on people who are simply doing as their culture has taught for thousands of years. It is a form of cultural imperialism. Do away with animals as a source of wealth and more than a billion people become paupers. . Omnivores, actually and Gorillas are pretty much vegans. Not to mention many millions starve. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/195 "2017-07-12T17:37:39Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > If we were to supply the current demand for meat with “grass fed, free range” animals, we’d probably need another earth. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/196 "2017-07-12T17:41:17Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > A highly “advanced” alien race comes down to Earth and conquers the human race. They start a program where they forcibly breed humans and then have them live in brutal slavery in filthy, deplorable, crowded conditions until they are ready to be killed for food. The aliens absolutely do not need human meat to survive or even thrive, but they eat it anyway because it “tastes good” to them, and because they believe they are the “superior” species. Would you not find this abhorrent? Would you not object to this ( for any reason other than self-interest?). > > And the vast, almost criminal wastefulness of meat production is something that doesn’t get enough attention. I guess you have never been on a farm. Now true, some animals are raised in “filthy, deplorable, crowded conditions”. But many arent. In our family farms up in Canada, the cattle are grazed and are pretty happy, as cattle go. The milk cows are almost treated as family. And so forth. and we have shown it isnt wasteful. And yes we object to eating\* sapient species.\* We dont eat dolphin or chimp here in America and most of the Western world and we condemn those who do. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/197 "2017-07-12T17:43:44Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/198 "2017-07-12T17:45:52Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > Raising animals for their meat/milk/eggs is always exploitative. Even “free range, grass fed, homesteaded” etc etc animals are exploited. > > . So are soybeans. Soybeans are alive also. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/199 "2017-07-12T17:47:30Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > I don’t have a problem with someone keeping and taking care of chickens. I have a problem with people breeding chickens for their meat and eggs, which is precisely what the meat/egg industry does. How about humans having kids so those kids can take care of them when they get old? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/200 "2017-07-12T17:54:12Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > In a perfectly run meat production, perhaps not. I believe most US meat production involves fear and pain in the animals. There has been some effort to reduce pain and fear in meat animals when taken to slaughter for purely practical reasons: a meat animal like a cow or full size pig is a big, potentially dangerous animal and keeping them calm reduces the risk of injury to slaughterhouse staff; calm animals are easier and therefore less expensive to handle; less pushback from the public; and less loss due to “downer” animals that can’t be sold at premium prices for human food. Temple Grandin is a designer of stock handling systems that encourage circling movements, which are instinctive to cattle, and managing what the animals see/hear, to minimize stress and fear until the moment they’re killed. Is US meat production perfect? Of course not. But it’s better than it was 50 years ago. Now if they could just come up with a good solution for the mountains/seas of animal shit at the holding and slaughtering sites… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659.md?page=11)