# What justification is there for eating meat? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 7, 2017, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659 "2017-07-07T00:25:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/201 "2017-07-12T18:30:47Z")
The animal rights argument goes something like this: A human should reduce animal suffering to the furthest degree possible without sacrificing human health because the suffering of non-human animals is bad. If that moral premise is correct, it is no rebuttal to say that animal welfare is improving in the meat industry unless you contend that it has improved to the point that there is a level of pain and suffering commensurate with growing plants (since we kill a lot of rodents and stuff in pest control). So real rebuttal needs to actually tackle the premise somehow. One possible rebuttal is that you cannot be a healthy vegetarian, and therefore human health is more important than or at least as important as animal suffering. I think that’s clearly wrong as to the health claim, but it’s a valid moral argument here. The other seemingly valid arguments are “animals aren’t moral agents and so their suffering has no moral relevance,” or “human aesthetic pleasure is a value that justifies animal suffering.” I think that, for the moral commitments of most people who believe in things like animal abuse laws, your only real option is to contend that human aesthetic pleasure is a value that justifies animal suffering. That’s the correct moral rebuttal, but people are very uncomfortable with it because of the implications. Suddenly you find yourself in a moral morass of balancing suffering against pleasure and you have to actually think carefully about things like foie gras or elephants in circuses and all kinds of other cans of worms (metaphorically!). People prefer to think they have some categorical rule, even if they only believe that because they haven’t carefully examined their own moral premises. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/202 "2017-07-12T19:12:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > How about humans having kids so those kids can take care of them when they get old? He self-identifies as an anti-natalist. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/203 "2017-07-12T22:32:00Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > … > I think that, for the moral commitments of most people who believe in things like animal abuse laws, your only real option is to contend that human aesthetic pleasure is a value that justifies animal suffering. That’s the correct moral rebuttal, but people are very uncomfortable with it because of the implications. Suddenly you find yourself in a moral morass of balancing suffering against pleasure and you have to actually think carefully about things like foie gras or elephants in circuses and all kinds of other cans of worms (metaphorically!). People prefer to think they have some categorical rule, even if they only believe that because they haven’t carefully examined their own moral premises. yes, this is what I believe. And I think if you unpack “it tastes good” that’s what most meat-eaters believe. I do try to buy meat from animals that are more humanely reared, and lead something resembling their “natural” life, except for protection from predators and rough weather and famine and drought… So mostly pastured animals. As an added bonus, the eggs from pastured chickens are noticeably tastier. My pleasure is worth some animal suffering, but the less suffering the better. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/204 "2017-07-12T22:46:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s an argument from authority, and you haven’t established your credentials. > > 😃 > > Regards, > Shodan My credentials as to knowing my opinion? Surely you jest. Or are you really questioning the value of my opinion? That’s fair. But surely you have read credible reports of poorly treated animals reared for meat and eggs. I think conditions vary a lot by species and by farm. Last time I looked, the American veal industry website asserted that they kept the baby herd animals isolated in cages. That’s cruel and unusual all by itself. Temple Grandin, who has, indeed, done a lot to improve the meat industry has documented some unfortunate conditions. I’m sure I can dig up some actual cites of inhumanely reared meat on the U.S., but don’t really feel the need to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Marci\_Al](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47c2d/32.png) [@Marci\_Al](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marci_Al)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/205 "2017-07-12T23:26:40Z")
I’d like to give my liver a break, since it produces 75% of my cholesterol needs. The enamel on my teeth are wearing thin from all that silica and carbonate contained in plants that I ate alive. I hate chewing on the whole, so one match box piece of red meat a day is all I want to ingest, not three big helpings of fruits and vegetables. Arable land is moving away farther and farther from where I live. The Government has stopped further tapping of the country’s main river courses for agriculture. The energy needed to process grain into something like bread is just not cost-effective. Anything grown from the ground is more prone to disruption in production due to things like calamities and cultural factors. I’m 6’7", weigh 500 pounds, and cereals and veggies leave me hungry after 15 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/206 "2017-07-13T00:28:57Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > . . . Or are you really questioning the value of my opinion? That’s fair. . . . It is a debate forum. Just saying, “I think so” isn’t (exactly) participating in a debate. If you think ranching and farming are cruel and cause suffering, you really need to come up with evidence for it to post here. Otherwise, you are on an exact par with flat earthers and creationists, who also have personal beliefs. I grew up on a cattle ranch, and, yes, there were some cruel bits. Branding was nasty. But it was also over quickly and showed no long-lasting trauma. For the most part, we left the cattle alone, and they made their own way in the world. You could watch them for days and not find an instance of human cruelty, because we’d let them completely to themselves for days. ---
**Author:** ![davida03801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@davida03801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davida03801)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/207 "2017-07-13T00:58:19Z")
> [@Clawdio](#): > > So in a message board forum titled “Great Debates”, someone asks “What is the justification for X?” Your response is to say " I don’t have to justify X". Interesting debate style, but I don’t really think it addresses the topic at hand. Seems to me it is the Veggies only folk who want the debate and the justification. Then when your get some answers your then saying well that not a valid debate point. ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Flavius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@Marcus\_Flavius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marcus_Flavius)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/208 "2017-07-13T01:01:03Z")
> [@Clawdio](#): > > Oh boy. As soon as I saw the thread title I knew this wouldn’t end well. OP: you may have poisoned the well a bit with the tone of your OP (not for me personally, but definitely for others), \*\*but to be honest, here at The Dope you could start a thread with nothing but the words “Have you ever considered switching to a vegetarian diet?” and by the 10th post it will have devolved into “ZOMG STEAK IS DELICIOUS, I NEED IT, I’M GOING TO ENJOY 10 OF THEM FOR DINNER TONIGHT, STOP TELLING ME HOW TO LIVE MY LIFE, WON’T ANYONE THINK OF THE PROTEIN” > \*\* > The factual answer is you can lead a perfectly healthy life on a plant based diet, but trying to convince others to do so is a fools errand. I think the heart of it is that most people grow up eating meat, so they tie a lot of emotions/memories/whatever to those flavors/textures. And therefore, there is as much vitriol in any thread about the vegetarian diet as there is any political thread on this board. I could be wrong, of course, just my guess. You know, I would expect this kind of behavior from [bodybuilding.com](http://bodybuilding.com) or some similar site, but not here. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/209 "2017-07-13T02:23:13Z")
So: “vegetarian diet is better for the environment than meat”= false “Vegetarian diet can generate more food than meat”= false “Animals are treated cruelly” not always and they dont have to be “Eating vegan is more moral than Omnivore”= entirely a matter of opinion. The Op has completely lost here. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/210 "2017-07-13T10:44:30Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > It is a debate forum. Just saying, “I think so” isn’t (exactly) participating in a debate. > > If you think ranching and farming are cruel and cause suffering, you really need to come up with evidence for it to post here. Otherwise, you are on an exact par with flat earthers and creationists, who also have personal beliefs. > > I grew up on a cattle ranch, and, yes, there were some cruel bits. Branding was nasty. But it was also over quickly and showed no long-lasting trauma. For the most part, we left the cattle alone, and they made their own way in the world. You could watch them for days and not find an instance of human cruelty, because we’d let them completely to themselves for days. I don’t have many issues with beef or lamb because my understanding is that that’s pretty much how most beef and lamb are raised. There’s the bit about feedlots at the end, but still, beef cattle spend most of their lives being cattle. Pork, chicken, and veal are mostly confined. I see that the American veal institute is now calling for group housing of calves: [http://www.americanveal.com/ava-policy](http://www.americanveal.com/ava-policy) That’s great. Last time I read their website it talked about how important it was to individually crate each animal so people could easily examine them for medical problems. Individually crating baby herd animals is cruel on its face. I’m delighted to see the industry is moving away from that. Truth be told, I don’t care very much about whether chickens suffer, but I do care about pigs, which are intelligent social mammals. I don’t have time to find citations today, but I’ve read quite a lot of disturbing stories about the handling of hogs. And maybe hogs, like dogs, are intelligent enough that I’m not completely comfortable eating them. I do still eat pork, but much less than I used to. A couple of years ago I kind of swapped in lamb for most of what had been pork purchases. Despite not carrying a lot about chickens, it turns out it’s easy to buy more humanely produced eggs, so I’ve done that. Putting a dollar premium on treating the animals better sends a constructive signal to the industry. In fact, reading the veal institute’s web site and the pork board’s website, it seems that consumer pressure has already improved animal conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/211 "2017-07-13T13:17:09Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > My credentials as to knowing my opinion? Surely you jest. Yes, I do. But don’t call me Shirley. > [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The animal rights argument goes something like this: A human should reduce animal suffering to the furthest degree possible without sacrificing human health because the suffering of non-human animals is bad. > > If that moral premise is correct, it is no rebuttal to say that animal welfare is improving in the meat industry unless you contend that it has improved to the point that there is a level of pain and suffering commensurate with growing plants (since we kill a lot of rodents and stuff in pest control). > > So real rebuttal needs to actually tackle the premise somehow. Another rebuttal is that animal suffering is less than the animal would otherwise have to endure in the wild. Thus by domesticating animals, we are reducing their suffering. All animals die\*, and being led to a slaughterhouse and having a bolt shot thru your brain is better than being chased down by wolves and eaten. Also, domesticated animals are much more successful as a species than they would be if they were not domesticated. Sheep raised for mutton and wool hugely outnumber wild sheep, there are tons more Thanksgiving turkeys than wild turkeys, etc. Thus, to the degree that evolution has a point/goal/teleology (yeah yeah, I know, but work with me here) then that end goal/whatever is better served for domesticated animals than for wild ones. If there is more to it than that, and moral considerations outweigh mere evolution, as I think is necessary to argue that humans should make “correct” moral choices, then obviously humans, who can make moral choices, are “better” or “higher” than animals who don’t. And thus we are back to arguing that using animals for the betterment of humans is justifiable on some level. The anti-natalist position basically boils down to “nothing is better than something” and thus seems to me to be self-refuting. How can it be better not to exist, if there is nothing that is benefitted? Regards, Shodan - If anyone asks for a cite, I am turning this thread around and we are going home, and I mean it, mister! ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/212 "2017-07-13T16:04:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Another rebuttal is that animal suffering is less than the animal would otherwise have to endure in the wild. Thus by domesticating animals, we are reducing their suffering. All animals die\*, and being led to a slaughterhouse and having a bolt shot thru your brain is better than being chased down by wolves and eaten. Is there a non-religious criteria that makes the length of a human life morally relevant but the length of an animal life not morally relevant? Death is mostly suffering for the living. So I guess it’s possible that if animals don’t care when their relatives and friends die then this doesn’t create suffering, but I doubt that premise. Moreover, if animals feel happiness–from mating or a particularly juicy blueberry or a well-prepared nest–then there probably is some moral value in animal lifespan. > [@Shodan](#): > > …obviously humans, who can make moral choices, are “better” or “higher” than animals who don’t. This is of course classic moral logic. And who am I to argue with the giants? But I don’t find myself entirely persuaded on that point. Do I have higher moral worth than my infant who cannot engage in moral reasoning, or a coma patient? Conversely, is it clear that animals cannot make moral choices? Certainly some higher order animals make decisions about transgressing social rules for personal gain, and have different propensities to do so individual to individual. > [@Shodan](#): > > The anti-natalist position basically boils down to “nothing is better than something” and thus seems to me to be self-refuting. How can it be better not to exist, if there is nothing that is benefitted? If I clone a bunch of little Shodans and raise them in my basement to do my bidding, is it not better that I have brought them into existence than to never have done so at all? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/213 "2017-07-13T16:25:03Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Is there a non-religious criteria that makes the length of a human life morally relevant but the length of an animal life not morally relevant? I wasn’t talking about lifespan; I was talking about mode of death. Which is better - for a wild animal to live for three years, and then break a leg and be torn apart by predators, or for a domestic animal to live for three years, and then have a bolt shot into its brain causing near-instantaneous death? > [@](#): > > Death is mostly suffering for the living. So I guess it’s possible that if animals don’t care when their relatives and friends die then this doesn’t create suffering, but I doubt that premise. Why would they care more if their relatives (I doubt sincerely if “friendship” in anything analogous to human friendship exists among most animals - it’s not like they go out for drinks on the weekend) die by being humanely slaughtered vs. starving and/or being eaten? > [@](#): > > Conversely, is it clear that animals cannot make moral choices? Certainly some higher order animals make decisions about transgressing social rules for personal gain, and have different propensities to do so individual to individual. We are talking about making moral choices about other species purely out of altruism. Show me some examples of a pig deciding not to eat a member of another species because it did not benefit that species. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/214 "2017-07-13T16:39:56Z")
The final moral argument of a vegan, that he/she cause less animal death than a omnivore is also likely false. Billions of insects are killed to make our modern veggies. Eating a carrot means you consume thousands of nematodes. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/215 "2017-07-13T17:48:59Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I wasn’t talking about lifespan; I was talking about mode of death. Oh, then I think you’re omitting pretty important variables, no? Which is better, living just past childhood and then being slaughtered with varying levels of suffering, or living longer (on average) and dying from predation or sickness or whatever? Not entirely clear to me. > [@Shodan](#): > > I doubt sincerely if “friendship” in anything analogous to human friendship exists among most animals The “most” part we can probably agree on. But we tend to eat pigs, cows, and birds, with a few others thrown in occasionally for variety. Pigs and cows, at least, do seem to form social relationships. > [@Shodan](#): > > We are talking about making moral choices about other species purely out of altruism. Show me some examples of a pig deciding not to eat a member of another species because it did not benefit that species. Ok. Then you’re not making the classical argument. For your version, why is the level of moral worth dependent on whether this narrow ad hoc aspect of morality is practiced, as opposed to being based on the ability to make moral decisions generally? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/216 "2017-07-13T18:35:45Z")
[QUOTE=Richard Parker] Oh, then I think you’re omitting pretty important variables, no? Which is better, living just past childhood and then being slaughtered with varying levels of suffering, or living longer (on average) and dying from predation or sickness or whatever? Not entirely clear to me. [/QUOTE] You would need to toss in the ever present danger of starvation as well for the wild animals, plus just living out in the elements verse living in a covered shelter and fed steadily. Also, you’d have to factor in the fact that just about all of the animals humans eat have been bred for hundreds or even thousands of years to be that, and wouldn’t survive in the wild anyway and would probably be extinct otherwise. While it’s still a difficult question, I think it’s pretty clear (to me anyway) that, by and large animals raised for food probably have a better quality of life than those in the wild…and this leaves aside the fact that most animals raised for food would have zero quality of life in the wild (only examples I can think of where this wouldn’t be the case is, perhaps, pigs and some of the farm raised fish species). ---
**Author:** ![purplehearingaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@purplehearingaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehearingaid)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/217 "2017-07-13T19:03:04Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > Seriously, it tastes good. > > And while farming practices seem like a horrible existence and could use improvement, at least the animals are taken care of until slaughter. In the wild they would constantly be in danger. > > Also, it tastes good. Do you have any idea what happen to calves before they’re slaughtered to become veal ??? I bet if wild animals and farm animals was able to pick where they could live it would be in the wild and not in a warehouse with no room to move or lie down! > **[How Factory Farming Hurts Animals](https://www.aspca.org/protecting-farm-animals/animals-factory-farms)** > > Each year billions of animals raised for food suffer under inhumane conditions on industrial farms. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/218 "2017-07-13T19:16:26Z")
> [@purplehearingaid](#): > > Do you have any idea what happen to calves before they’re slaughtered to become veal ??? I bet if wild animals and farm animals was able to pick where they could live it would be in the wild and not in a warehouse with no room to move or lie down! > > [Animals on Factory Farms | Chickens | Pigs | Cattle | ASPCA](https://www.aspca.org/animal-cruelty/farm-animal-welfare/animals-factory-farms) How much would you bet and how would we create a test to see who wins? Myself, my WAG is that cows, having been bred to domesticity for thousands of years would MUCH rather be fed and housed than actually be in the wild, but I doubt there is any way to test either theory. BTW, what do you suppose happens to many calves in the wild? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/219 "2017-07-13T19:40:24Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > You know, I would expect this kind of behavior from [bodybuilding.com](http://bodybuilding.com) or some similar site, but not here. Well, you didn’t pay for the \*good \*argument. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/220 "2017-07-13T19:47:19Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Myself, my WAG is that cows, having been bred to domesticity for thousands of years would MUCH rather be fed and housed than actually be in the wild, but I doubt there is any way to test either theory. When it’s time to be milked, the cows enter the barn voluntarily. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659.md?page=12)