# What justification is there for eating meat? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 7, 2017, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659 "2017-07-07T00:25:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Flavius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@Marcus\_Flavius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marcus_Flavius)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/101 "2017-07-09T05:54:01Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > There isn’t The vast majority of Americans (who view dogs as beloved pets and companions and get riled up with emotionalism and indignation whenever they are harmed by people) would disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/102 "2017-07-09T06:22:10Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > What does that even mean? I’ll let a vegan [explain it](https://veganbiologist.com/2016/01/04/humans-are-not-herbivores/). There are plenty of reasons to be a vegetarian/vegan. Appeals to natural biology are not one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/103 "2017-07-09T12:03:24Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > Ok ok, maybe that was a bit too harsh of a comparison… but replace child molesters with people who eat dog meat and believe there is nothing wrong with farming and slaughtering dogs. I’m going to assume you have an objection to farming dogs for meat because you object to farming any animal for meat. Eating dog isn’t my culture, but I understand that it’s been a practice in many cultures in history, from Asia to Central America. It’s not something I would do or promote but I’m not going to insist that, say, Vietnam ban the practice. I know you were reaching for an analogy there but really, child molesting is going to generate a much more visceral reaction than almost any dietary choice. > [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > Ethically, I am opposed to bringing life into existence to be horribly exploited, and then killed for no other reason than for our pleasure. So… my neighbor with the chickens, who get to run around the backyard scratching and eating all day, who are sheltered from predators all night, are “horribly exploited”? Seems to me they have pretty good chicken lives, and a damn sight safer than wild chickens. Which is, of course, different entirely from battery hens. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/104 "2017-07-09T13:53:40Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > The vast majority of Americans (who view dogs as beloved pets and companions and get riled up with emotionalism and indignation whenever they are harmed by people) would disagree. So the world needs to conform it’s dietary practices to what the majority of Americans find acceptable? ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/105 "2017-07-09T14:05:00Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > Philosophically, I am opposed to bringing life into existence ( see ‘antinatalism’- meat consumption obviously incentives the breeding of farm animals into existence.) So you long for the glory days of the Precambrian and wish that we were working towards a world that is a cold, dead rock? At least you are on the correct career path. ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Flavius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@Marcus\_Flavius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marcus_Flavius)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/106 "2017-07-09T14:15:02Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > So… my neighbor with the chickens, who get to run around the backyard scratching and eating all day, who are sheltered from predators all night, are “horribly exploited”? Seems to me they have pretty good chicken lives, and a damn sight safer than wild chickens. Which is, of course, different entirely from battery hens. Raising animals for their meat/milk/eggs is always exploitative. Even “free range, grass fed, homesteaded” etc etc animals are exploited. > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > So you long for the glory days of the Precambrian and wish that we were working towards a world that is a cold, dead rock? Antinatalism is not about creating a “cold, dead rock.” It is about not further creating sentient life. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/107 "2017-07-09T14:45:30Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > Raising animals for their meat/milk/eggs is always exploitative. Even “free range, grass fed, homesteaded” etc etc animals are exploited. True but where do you draw the line? As a living being you consume things. As such you have an impact on the environment around you. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/108 "2017-07-09T14:49:17Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > One objection is that farming meat is a terrible waste of resources and a horribly inefficient way of producing food. At the same time, many people enjoy eating it. Hence a growing interest in developing cheap synthetic meat. Beef is the worst, though: smaller animals (rabbit, lamb, chicken…) are nowhere near as wasteful. And for those of us whose food issues involve several vegetables frequent in vegetarian or vegan diets (soy is one of my asthma triggers), it’s just a lot simpler. Eating soy free is a pain in the ass, eating soy free vegan (because if keeping chickens for slaughter is evil, so is keeping them for eggs) fugedaboutit. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/109 "2017-07-09T15:48:49Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > Antinatalism is not about creating a “cold, dead rock.” It is about not further creating sentient life. No, antinatalism is about not creating human life. Being opposed to the future existence of all forms of higher animal life is formally known as “raving wackadoodle nutbaggery.” ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/110 "2017-07-09T15:56:40Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > Raising animals for their meat/milk/eggs is always exploitative. Even “free range, grass fed, homesteaded” etc etc animals are exploited. In other words, keeping animals at all is wrong. Gotcha. Nevermind the chickens get to run around being chickens until they drop dead of old age, it’s cruel to keep them alive at all, it’s cruel to provide them shelter and safety, while nicking the occasional egg out from under them. How do you feel about keeping pets? Seeing eye dogs? > [@](#): > > Antinatalism is not about creating a “cold, dead rock.” It is about not further creating sentient life. Are you also an advocate of the human race ceasing to reproduce? Just wondering if you’re on that extreme or not. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/111 "2017-07-09T16:23:12Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > In the end it is all just calories in and calories out. > > You can certainly get the calories you need with a vegetable only diet. Most of the largest animals on the planet are herbivores. > > For humans certainly doable but takes a bit more work to be sure you are getting all the bits you need. It must be admitted, though, that unlike those large herbivores, people eat a lot of seeds (grain, beans, nuts) and fruits (tomatoes, eggplant, pumpkin, okra, as well as everything we call “fruit”) and not a lot of leaves and stems. I don’t know if it’s possible for a human to survive on leaves and stems, but if it is, that human would probably need to eat all day long, too. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/112 "2017-07-09T16:24:27Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > The vast majority of Americans (who view dogs as beloved pets and companions and get riled up with emotionalism and indignation whenever they are harmed by people) would disagree. I’m not wild about the idea of eating dog. And I mostly don’t eat pork. But I just can’t see it as evil. Especially if the animals aren’t mistreated while alive. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/113 "2017-07-09T16:26:33Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > … > > So… my neighbor with the chickens, who get to run around the backyard scratching and eating all day, who are sheltered from predators all night, are “horribly exploited”? Seems to me they have pretty good chicken lives, and a damn sight safer than wild chickens. Which is, of course, different entirely from battery hens. Chickens are dumb as shit. It’s a stretch to call them “sentient”. To the extent they are, they are nasty creatures. Yes, I lived with chickens for a while. I can’t imagine any better life for a chicken than what you describe. ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Flavius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@Marcus\_Flavius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marcus_Flavius)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/114 "2017-07-09T17:40:14Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > In other words, keeping animals at all is wrong. Gotcha. Nevermind the chickens get to run around being chickens until they drop dead of old age, it’s cruel to keep them alive at all, it’s cruel to provide them shelter and safety, while nicking the occasional egg out from under them. > How do you feel about keeping pets? Seeing eye dogs? I don’t have a problem with someone keeping and taking care of chickens. I have a problem with people breeding chickens for their meat and eggs, which is precisely what the meat/egg industry does. I’m opposed to purchasing pets because that creates demand and incentivizes the breeding of more animals for pets, but I don’t have a problem with people adopting animals. > [@Broomstick](#): > > \*\*Are you also an advocate of the human race ceasing to reproduce? \*\* Just wondering if you’re on that extreme or not. Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/115 "2017-07-09T17:52:48Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I don’t know if it’s possible for a human to survive on leaves and stems, but if it is, that human would probably need to eat all day long, too. See [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=830250) recent thread. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/116 "2017-07-09T18:07:53Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > I don’t have a problem with someone keeping and taking care of chickens. I have a problem with people breeding chickens for their meat and eggs, which is precisely what the meat/egg industry does. I’m opposed to purchasing pets because that creates demand and incentivizes the breeding of more animals for pets, but I don’t have a problem with people adopting animals. Hey, man, around here people will \*give \*you Rhode Island Reds, they sort of breed on their own if you let them. Great pet chickens - they haven’t been super-optimized for either eggs or meat, and they’ve also been bred for some hardiness so they don’t suffer the problems of more specialized breeds. **Puzzlegal** is right, though - chickens aren’t very smart. Even around here where the really stupid ones get eat by local predators and/or run over by cars (there used to be a rooster in the area that would challenge vehicles and spur the front bumper. It ended as you might expect.) Basically, just smart enough to be chickens and nothing more. But then, what more do they need? Also, not particularly nice animals. Interesting and at times useful. Capable of a some very simple types of training. Can be either entertaining or annoying (the roosters are especially likely to be the latter). > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Are you also an advocate of the human race ceasing to reproduce? Just wondering if you’re on that extreme or not. > > Yes. Well, OK, you get points for consistency at least. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/117 "2017-07-09T18:30:33Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > **Puzzlegal** is right, though - chickens aren’t very smart. [_Scientific American_: The Startling Intelligence of the Common Chicken.](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-startling-intelligence-of-the-common-chicken/) ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/118 "2017-07-09T18:47:50Z")
Yes, I’ve read that (might even have a hardcopy of it around here somewhere). Chickens are smarter than people typically give them credit for, but really, they’re optimized as chickens, not Einsteins. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/119 "2017-07-09T19:39:13Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > . . . I have a problem with people breeding chickens for their meat and eggs . . . What possible objection can there be to taking eggs? Most eggs do not hatch – if they did, the coop and yard would be over-populated horribly. Why just throw the eggs in the trash, when we can collect them and have them for breakfast? Eggs from the coop are like apples from the tree: they’re there, waiting for us to take them, and if we don’t, they’ll simply rot on the ground. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/120 "2017-07-09T19:39:24Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Unfortunately equating meat-eating with child molestation ends the debate before it can begin. I’m not personally offended( because I don’t care that much about the opinions of strangers on the internet), but many will be. […] Trying to shame folks rarely works in arguments - best to keep your opinions of meat-eaters to yourself if they’re going to come out that charged. I, for one, have no issue with this comparison. It allows readers to understand his perception, and if I’m not mistaken, he stated that in order to explain why it was making him so emotional. It’s a bit like comparing god to fairies in debates about religion. Many believers get offended by the comparison but they can’t really understand the atheist mindset until they grasp the idea that for him, there isn’t much difference. Basically, he’s saying : “I feel as strongly about eating meat as you feel about child molestation”. It’s an informative statement. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659.md?page=7)