# What justification is there for eating meat? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 7, 2017, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659 "2017-07-07T00:25:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Flavius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@Marcus\_Flavius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marcus_Flavius)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/161 "2017-07-11T02:56:37Z")
> [@Weisshund](#): > > Requires among other things, money, manufacturers, suppliers, retailers. > Not exactly available to all humans in all parts of the world. > It’s an artificial bubble > While true, same can be said of the nutrients contained in grass etc. > > I’m not sure about you, but i can not digest or metabolize dirt grass bacteria and mold very well. > I’m human, i can process any meat, fat, cartilage, and bone to a degree. > Any meat, mammal reptile fish insect (chicken is reptile) > > And yet only a limited (in the grand scheme of things) variety of the globally available plants. > > There are a lot of people in the world that dont even have access to your vitamin enhanced tofu, are you going to offer to start buying for them and delivering it to them? > **Nature had a much better way, it made them able to eat meat.** Plenty of heavy meat eaters have B12 deficiencies. B12 deficiency is likely caused by living in an ultra-sterilized modern day environment, not from failing to consume enough meat. ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Flavius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@Marcus\_Flavius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marcus_Flavius)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/162 "2017-07-11T03:01:34Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > It’s an angsty goth-teenager’s version of nihilism, which in and of itself is a snivelly limp-dick philosophy. It’s not deep, it’s not profound, it’s just a little pathetic. Yeah, [totally](http://maverickphilosopher.typepad.com/.a/6a010535ce1cf6970c015391cdedb3970b-pi) [angsty](http://cdn1.lurkersgrave.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/fschop1.jpg)[goth](https://img7.custompublish.com/getfile.php/3034226.2337.padfeudtvs/238x0/5610347_3034226.jpg)[teenyboppers](http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/eduard-von-hartmann-2302184205061906-philosopher-germany-portrait-picture-id542396387?s=612x612)yo ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Flavius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@Marcus\_Flavius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marcus_Flavius)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/163 "2017-07-11T03:05:36Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **WRONG** > > Okay, you say you’re not opposed to people adopting pets. Then what should we feed our pets? Cats, for example, cannot eat a vegan diet. They are what is known [obligate carnivores](http://www.petmd.com/cat/nutrition/evr_ct_cat_nutritional_needs_different). So they must have meat. Any attempt to put a cat on a diet that contains no meat will kill them. > > And yes, all of my cats were adopted. Three from the Humane Society, and one from the vet’s office. (I believe she was originally a barn kitten) The only thing we paid were the adoption fees. Cats will die a prolonged, agonizing death if they are fed a plant-based diet. Therefore, it is justified for them to eat meat. Just so long as more cats aren’t being purposefully bred into existence by humans. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/164 "2017-07-11T03:32:18Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > Cats will die a prolonged, agonizing death if they are fed a plant-based diet. Therefore, it is justified for them to eat meat. Just so long as more cats aren’t being purposefully bred into existence by humans. So you have no problem with animals being bred for cat food? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/165 "2017-07-11T04:07:37Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > Plenty of heavy meat eaters have B12 deficiencies. B12 deficiency is likely caused by living in an ultra-sterilized modern day environment, not from failing to consume enough meat. Although B12 can be extracted from sewage, I don’t believe it would be healthy for a human to eat enough sewage to satisfy their need for B12. I think we need to eat animal products, or take supplements that have been chemically extracted from other sources. People who eat meat and have vitamin B12 deficiencies don’t suffer from being “too clean”, they suffer from lack of ability to digest B12, which can happen with age, or from auto-immune disorders, or from mechanical insult to the gut. (such as taking proton-pump inhibitors to reduce stomach acid, or having gastric bypass surgery.) > **[Vitamin B12 Deficiency: Causes, Symptoms, and Treatment](https://www.webmd.com/diet/vitamin-b12-deficiency-symptoms-causes#2)** > > Vitamin B12 is essential for good health, but some people may not be getting enough. WebMD tells you about symptoms of a vitamin B12 deficiency and how it can be treated. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/166 "2017-07-11T06:58:41Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > Cats will die a prolonged, agonizing death if they are fed a plant-based diet. Therefore, it is justified for them to eat meat. Just so long as more cats aren’t being purposefully bred into existence by humans. So… purposely allow domestic cats to become extinct? Have you considered that if we just made humans extinct, they would stop eating meat? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/167 "2017-07-11T12:26:16Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > Plenty of heavy meat eaters have B12 deficiencies. B12 deficiency is likely caused by living in an ultra-sterilized modern day environment, not from failing to consume enough meat. Please provide a cite for that claim. There is a metabolic B12 deficiency called “pernicious anemia” but it’s not particularly common. It’s believed to be an auto-immune disorder and existed prior to the “ultra-sterilized modern day environment”, so that concept is false. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/168 "2017-07-11T12:29:24Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > So… purposely allow domestic cats to become extinct? Have you considered that if we just made humans extinct, they would stop eating meat? Yes, he has - I asked him about that and he’s in favor of people no longer reproducing. See post #114. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/169 "2017-07-11T13:12:04Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > Yeah, [totally](http://maverickphilosopher.typepad.com/.a/6a010535ce1cf6970c015391cdedb3970b-pi) [angsty](http://cdn1.lurkersgrave.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/fschop1.jpg)[goth](https://img7.custompublish.com/getfile.php/3034226.2337.padfeudtvs/238x0/5610347_3034226.jpg)[teenyboppers](http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/eduard-von-hartmann-2302184205061906-philosopher-germany-portrait-picture-id542396387?s=612x612)yo Cool game. Can I play too? A few [more](http://www.gettyimages.com/photos/genghis-khan?excludenudity=true&sort=mostpopular&mediatype=photography&phrase=genghis%20khan) [notable](http://www.gettyimages.com/photos/pol-pot?excludenudity=true&sort=mostpopular&mediatype=photography&phrase=pol%20pot) [vegans](http://www.gettyimages.com/photos/charles-manson?excludenudity=true&sort=mostpopular&mediatype=photography&phrase=charles%20manson&family=editorial) [& vegetarians](http://www.gettyimages.com/photos/adolf-hitler?excludenudity=true&sort=mostpopular&mediatype=photography&phrase=adolf%20hitler&family=editorial). ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/170 "2017-07-11T13:30:08Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Cool game. Can I play too? A few [more](http://www.gettyimages.com/photos/genghis-khan?excludenudity=true&sort=mostpopular&mediatype=photography&phrase=genghis%20khan) [notable](http://www.gettyimages.com/photos/pol-pot?excludenudity=true&sort=mostpopular&mediatype=photography&phrase=pol%20pot) [vegans](http://www.gettyimages.com/photos/charles-manson?excludenudity=true&sort=mostpopular&mediatype=photography&phrase=charles%20manson&family=editorial) [& vegetarians](http://www.gettyimages.com/photos/adolf-hitler?excludenudity=true&sort=mostpopular&mediatype=photography&phrase=adolf%20hitler&family=editorial). This combined with post #114 convinces me that vegetarianism is very unhealthy and dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![Clawdio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d07c76/32.png) [@Clawdio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clawdio)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/171 "2017-07-11T15:05:42Z")
Oh boy. As soon as I saw the thread title I knew this wouldn’t end well. OP: you may have poisoned the well a bit with the tone of your OP (not for me personally, but definitely for others), but to be honest, here at The Dope you could start a thread with nothing but the words “Have you ever considered switching to a vegetarian diet?” and by the 10th post it will have devolved into “ZOMG STEAK IS DELICIOUS, I NEED IT, I’M GOING TO ENJOY 10 OF THEM FOR DINNER TONIGHT, STOP TELLING ME HOW TO LIVE MY LIFE, WON’T ANYONE THINK OF THE PROTEIN” The factual answer is you can lead a perfectly healthy life on a plant based diet, but trying to convince others to do so is a fools errand. I think the heart of it is that most people grow up eating meat, so they tie a lot of emotions/memories/whatever to those flavors/textures. And therefore, there is as much vitriol in any thread about the vegetarian diet as there is any political thread on this board. I could be wrong, of course, just my guess. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/172 "2017-07-11T15:42:41Z")
Debates over the morality of eating animals have thoroughly convinced me that our moral systems are arbitrary. Most people in these threads don’t even try to make a moral case as such. Most of those who make an argument at all appeal to tradition or what humans evolved to do or hey animals do it too–arguments they would _never_ make in the context of other moral debates, because they’d see how silly they are immediately. Another big contingent simply doesn’t engage in argument at all. They just make jokes about how tasty bacon is (which, obviously). Inevitably, a handful of people relate gleeful accounts of how they enjoy transgressing the moral question raised in the OP. It’s just…odd. No one behaves this way in any other threads about morality that involve just as unpopular or misguided moral ideas. I’ve never seen anyone gloat about dismembering fetuses so they could spend the money on vacations, even though lots of us believe that dismembering a fetus is no more morally disgusting than eating an animal (and, indeed, quite less, given the absence of suffering or fear that can be felt by a 16 week old human fetus). The other recurrent characteristic of these threads is the sheer defensiveness. I guess because eating is so intimate, people tend to react quite belligerently to people who question dietary morality. But it seems worse on this topic than any other. Open up a random thread on parenting, for example, and you’ll see plenty of defensiveness but not the vitriol often expressed in vegetarianism threads. That defensiveness is all the more inexplicable because of how extremely unpopular animal rights views are. Purely as a sociological phenomenon, I don’t understand it. [Not that it matters, but I eat meat and am morally OK with it. Though I do think this is an area of moral uncertainty, and I think the sensible thing to do in such cases is moderate your behavior.] ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/173 "2017-07-11T15:54:30Z")
> [@Clawdio](#): > > The factual answer is you can lead a perfectly healthy life on a plant based diet, but trying to convince others to do so is a fools errand. I think the heart of it is that most people grow up eating meat, so they tie a lot of emotions/memories/whatever to those flavors/textures. I think this applies as much to meat eaters as it does to veg eaters. An awful lot of time, energy and food development is spent on making vegetables look, feel and taste like meat. I realize not every single vegetarian seeks out foods that remind him/her of meat, but one only needs to walk into your average grocery store and visit the vegan section, to say nothing of the cook books filled with mock meat recipes. Humans evolved to eat/crave meat and all its properties. There’s no getting around that. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/174 "2017-07-11T16:20:52Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Most people in these threads don’t even try to make a moral case as such. Most of those who make an argument at all appeal to tradition or what humans evolved to do or hey animals do it too–arguments they would _never_ make in the context of other moral debates, because they’d see how silly they are immediately. Another big contingent simply doesn’t engage in argument at all. They just make jokes about how tasty bacon is (which, obviously). Inevitably, a handful of people relate gleeful accounts of how they enjoy transgressing the moral question raised in the OP. > > It’s just…odd. No one behaves this way in any other threads about morality that involve just as unpopular or misguided moral ideas. I had every one of these thoughts while reading this thread. _Why shouldn’t we do something if we evolved doing it?_ I’m positive questions like that would have been answered if the subject were something like rape, by the same posters asking it in this thread. “Why shouldn’t I rape women, they’re hot!” would have gotten a lot of hostile responses. \* Fuck suffering, bacon is tasty.\* Ooh, so macho! It doesn’t seem like the GD forum I’m used to when this topic comes up. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/175 "2017-07-11T19:14:32Z")
Since I was the first to reply, maybe I’ll also be the last. _I don’t have to justify eating meat._ Not to the OP, not to the Vegan community, not to PETA, not to anyone. I don’t answer to any of those people. If the OP, and a few others, garner a sense of moral superiority from abstaining, bully for them. A sense of moral superiority, though, is one of those things that should be enjoyed privately. Just sit there and quietly feel smug about your plate of mung beans and quinoa as you watch me hork down my double bacon cheeseburger with a side of fried baby dolphin. I guarantee you that “calling me out” will only ruin your meal as well as mine. ---
**Author:** ![Clawdio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d07c76/32.png) [@Clawdio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clawdio)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/176 "2017-07-11T20:05:57Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Since I was the first to reply, maybe I’ll also be the last. _I don’t have to justify eating meat._ Not to the OP, not to the Vegan community, not to PETA, not to anyone. I don’t answer to any of those people. If the OP, and a few others, garner a sense of moral superiority from abstaining, bully for them. A sense of moral superiority, though, is one of those things that should be enjoyed privately. Just sit there and quietly feel smug about your plate of mung beans and quinoa as you watch me hork down my double bacon cheeseburger with a side of fried baby dolphin. I guarantee you that “calling me out” will only ruin your meal as well as mine. So in a message board forum titled “Great Debates”, someone asks “What is the justification for X?” Your response is to say " I don’t have to justify X". Interesting debate style, but I don’t really think it addresses the topic at hand. It’s as if someone asked What is the justification for NOT recycling, and you responded with “I don’t have to justify NOT recycling. Just sit there quietly feeling smug about recycling, and watch me throw my plastic in the garbage” ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/177 "2017-07-11T22:51:31Z")
As somebody else noted upthread, “justify” implies meat eating is, on some level, wrong. It is neither right nor wrong. How do you you "justify it? To whom do you “justify” it? The question is meaningless at best and well-poisoning at worst. Also, very little actual debate takes place in this forum. The mods enforce the board rules and etiquette, but they can’t (or won’t) try to make the back-and-forth here into real debating. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/178 "2017-07-11T23:43:21Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Since I was the first to reply, maybe I’ll also be the last. _I don’t have to justify eating meat._ Not to the OP, not to the Vegan community, not to PETA, not to anyone. . . . Not at the moment, but consider that the pendulum might swing (wildly) some day, and we find ourselves having to justify ourselves in order to fend off the passage of laws prohibiting meat. California passed a law prohibiting the selling or horse-meat. It is unlikely that this would ever be generalized to a ban on all meat…but it isn’t impossible. Not all vegetarians would favor banning the slaughtering of animals for meat…but many would, and it is that ideology to which we must address our justification. “It’s yummy” isn’t enough, and, alas, “It’s a free country” is also not enough. It’s a specific freedom that (some of them) want to take away from us. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/179 "2017-07-12T00:11:55Z")
“Take away my meat, and I’ll eat your cold, dead hand.” ---
**Author:** ![Unabashed\_Fascist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/c2a13f/32.png) [@Unabashed\_Fascist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unabashed_Fascist)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659/180 "2017-07-12T00:12:04Z")
How does someone prove that something is right or wrong? Murder is bad, right? It’s more or less universally agreed upon. But is it bad _because_ well all agree that it’s bad? If everyone got together and agreed that eating meat is bad, that would make it immoral right? No further proof needed? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-justification-is-there-for-eating-meat/790659.md?page=10)