# What killed the malls? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2014, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470 "2014-07-06T10:01:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/61 "2014-07-06T21:27:02Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > 1. \*\*The rise of open-air malls: \*\*We just are not as fond of controlled climates as we once were. Living in Minnesota, we are just as fond of climate control - but its really expensive to heat the darn things - which means rent is high - which means that its hard for stores to turn a profit. In a strip mall, the space you heat is the store footage. In a big box store the space you heat is the store footage. In an enclosed mall - you pay to heat a lot of space used for not selling things. Mall of America does pretty well, between locals and tourists it gets enough business to retain tenants, although one of its anchors is gone and hasn’t been replaced (Bloomingdales). ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/62 "2014-07-06T22:21:59Z")
What about local taxes? Here in the UK we talk of the death of the High Street. Numerous shops and stores closing down in city centres. I assume these closures are in part to do with the internet and local taxes. Heavily taxed traditional walk in stores will always be struggling against internet retailers who do not pay these same local taxes. ---
**Author:** ![No\_umlaut\_for\_U](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ea5d25/32.png) [@No\_umlaut\_for\_U](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/No_umlaut_for_U)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/63 "2014-07-06T23:27:42Z")
I live in a section of the US where there are a lot of dead malls, and even more empty strip malls. I can’t think of a single mall which didn’t have a JC Penney, a Sears, or both. Like **Mr.** **Miskatonic** stated above under his #8, the anchors aren’t replaceable. There aren’t too many cities left with an independent department store or a smaller chain with downtown locations left to move into these spaces. If you throw in a gang issue, no one will move into vacancies. What retailers still need large stores? Auto dealers and appliance stores like Frys. There are a lot of empty dealerships and a lot of space still left from Wards and Circuit City failures. Better to just turn the space over to hydroponic farming and recycle the asphalt. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/64 "2014-07-07T01:07:08Z")
One thing I have noticed is that the remaining big malls are just getting bigger. The King of Prussia Mall just added a couple of medium box stores & restaraunts (one being a Container Store) to its perimeter -sacrificing only a gas station and some parking that was waaaaaay too far from the main buildings to be a huge loss. THat would seem to be where the retail money is going. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/65 "2014-07-07T01:32:41Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > What about local taxes? Here in the UK we talk of the death of the High Street. Numerous shops and stores closing down in city centres. I assume these closures are in part to do with the internet and local taxes. Heavily taxed traditional walk in stores will always be struggling against internet retailers who do not pay these same local taxes. In most U.S. Localities, I doubt very much that State and local sales taxes are not high enough to be the key factor. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/66 "2014-07-07T02:22:16Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I don’t know how malls survived during their heydey. Sure, people flock to them on the weekends and on holidays. But during the middle of the day, who is doing a bunch of heavy-duty shopping? I know that if I need to pick up something from the mall in the middle of the day, it’s a specific something most likely sold by an anchor store with its own entrance and exit. So I can see how Macy’s can manage, but not all the little kiosks and smaller stores that comprise the “inside” of the mall. We used to have several retail stores in mall and in retail districts and the weekend business was about half of your weekly revenue. You can do pretty well with very light traffic the rest of the week if you can pack it in on the weekends. > [@Odesio](#): > > Teenagers are a force to be reckoned with in the retail world and they have been for more than eighty years now. In 2000 teens were estimated to spend 155 billion dollars in the United States. You’re probably right that there aren’t very many teens you could classify as heavy duty shoppers but they’re a serious demographic to court. All of a teenager’s income is disposable and they are much more susceptible to impulse purchases than other shoppers. They are also much less value oriented and will buy cheap crap for a lot more than its worth if you can convince them they want it. Next to first time brides and new parents, they are probably the best customers to have except you are only in wedding mode for a few months, you are a new parents for a year or two, you are a teenager from when you get your first allowance to when you make your first rent payment after college (and sometimes for decades afterwards). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/67 "2014-07-07T02:26:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Acsenray** : > > Yeah, malls were always a bad idea, contributing to urban sprawl, gas consumption, killing local business, contributing to non-walk ability/car culture. The “urban villages” springing up now are definitely an improvement. The “urban villages” we have now are the exact same thing as malls, except without the roof. Other than that, they have all of the same virtues and vices. Really, the question shouldn’t be “why are malls dying?”, but rather “why don’t malls have roofs any more?”. And for those talking about “climate controlling all of that enclosed space”: It doesn’t cost to climate control space. It costs to climate control surface area and doors. And the new sort of mall without the roof probably has more total surface area than the old sort with a roof, and certainly has more doors. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/68 "2014-07-07T02:56:26Z")
> [@No\_umlaut\_for\_U](#): > > Better to just turn the space over to hydroponic farming… As more states legalize marijuana, that may indeed be the future. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/69 "2014-07-07T03:10:18Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Unless there was a major redrawing of state borders while I was asleep last night (placing Philadelphia and it’s western suburbs in Jersey), King of Prussia Mall is in PA not NJ. Other malls in this area are also still in business. Plymouth Meeting Mall in Plymouth Meeting is still open and seems to be doing well. > > I ride the train into center city Philly every day and get off at Market East Station which is located in an underground shopping mall, and the mall is always packed with people (other than commuters) in the evenings when I catch the train home. > > I’m not saying that there aren’t dying malls, I’m sure that there are, I’m just saying that it appears that there are still many that are at least surviving or even thriving. You’re right of course. I’m not sure why I thought KoP Mall was in NJ. Certainly there are other malls that are thriving. But it does seem like a lot of the smaller ones aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![ralfy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ralfy/32/600_2.png) [@ralfy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralfy)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/70 "2014-07-07T03:15:05Z")
Also, a consumer spending economy that is not sustainable. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/71 "2014-07-07T03:35:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Better to just turn the space over to hydroponic farming A major feature in the _METAtropolis_ series. ---
**Author:** ![actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/actualliberalnotoneofthose)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/72 "2014-07-07T03:36:17Z")
My observation is not just limited to malls, but in EVERY town where I have lived there is usually one side of town with a mall and/or major retailers/restaurants. Then a “new mall” or (especially post 2000) major store opens up on the exact opposite side of town and all the other retailers follow suit. So what we end up with is constant new development with an increasing number of huge vacant buildings. In some cities this has resulted in 3 or 4 “sides” of town being consolidated into 1 shopping region. The first time I saw a mall die was around 1990. It was a doubly whammy- “The New Mall” was built, and a college student was murdered in the bathroom by the movie theater in the “Old (15 yrs or so) Mall.” The new mall got retailers the old one never had, plus most of the existing stores switched. Then every store (Toys rUs, Service Merchandise, Lowes, grocery stores, restaurants) in the vicinity of the old mall moved to the new end of town, too. Plus, downtown died, too. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/73 "2014-07-07T03:40:05Z")
> [@](#): > > My observation is not just limited to malls, but in EVERY town where I have lived there is usually one side of town with a mall and/or major retailers/restaurants. Then a “new mall” or (especially post 2000) major store opens up on the exact opposite side of town and all the other retailers follow suit. So what we end up with is constant new development with an increasing number of huge vacant buildings. In some cities this has resulted in 3 or 4 “sides” of town being consolidated into 1 shopping region. > > The first time I saw a mall die was around 1990. It was a doubly whammy- “The New Mall” was built, and a college student was murdered in the bathroom by the movie theater in the “Old (15 yrs or so) Mall.” The new mall got retailers the old one never had, plus most of the existing stores switched. Then every store (Toys rUs, Service Merchandise, Lowes, grocery stores, restaurants) in the vicinity of the old mall moved to the new end of town, too. Plus, downtown died, too. When I first was in Cairo, the idea that “cities are never finished” hit me very hard. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/74 "2014-07-07T04:20:54Z")
What’s happening with malls? Here’s the answer.[Malls are dead, long live the mall.](http://www.marketplace.org/topics/business/corner-office/malls-are-dead-long-live-mall) From Marketplace. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/75 "2014-07-07T04:45:58Z")
> [@susan](#): > > When I first was in Cairo, the idea that “cities are never finished” hit me very hard. I think I know exactly what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/76 "2014-07-07T04:51:38Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > You’re right of course. I’m not sure why I thought KoP Mall was in NJ. Certainly there are other malls that are thriving. But it does seem like a lot of the smaller ones aren’t. I think malls which went upscale and are regional are still doing well. The one in San Jose, though right next to a new upscale strip shopping center, just redid a wing for luxury shops and is jammed. There is also the sales tax fight. The downtown shopping center in my town lost most of its anchor stores to a mall the next town over, and the sales tax revenue. A supermarket and Target saved it. Then they developed a massive open air center in our town, and it took a lot of the good stores out of the mall. It also has lots of restaurants, not food court stuff, which helps. So our sales tax revenue came back. How to open air centers work in places where it gets cold and snows? Near me this isn’t a problem, but the same guy who did Inner Harbor opened up a high class open air center north of Princeton, and if you went near Christmas in bad weather you had the place to yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/77 "2014-07-07T05:03:54Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Every enclosed mall has vast volumes of space that isn’t bringing in any money (kiosks? It is to laugh!) but still needs to be heated and cooled. When they were built energy was cheap. Has maintaining all of that dead air contributed to their decline? Try the Mall of America in Minneapolis. It has one area so large that clouds form. Mall of America does well because it’s sooo damn big with over 400 stores, an amusement park, an aquarium, and such that it’s a tourist destination in itself. 12,000 people work there. If you go there their are a couple of “secret” items from when it used to be a Twins baseball stadium - like the location of the former home plate. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/78 "2014-07-07T06:23:24Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The “urban villages” we have now are the exact same thing as malls, except without the roof. Other than that, they have all of the same virtues and vices. Really, the question shouldn’t be “why are malls dying?”, but rather “why don’t malls have roofs any more?”. I’m not sure it’s fair to lump all of this new development together. Some outdoor malls are exactly like indoor malls except the roof. Parking lots are the same, suburban location is the same. But many of the downtown developments are located in downtowns where a mall could never be, have extensive housing located above the retail stores, and have buried parking or multi-story parking that conserves space and doesn’t turn the new “mall” into the traditional island of retail surrounded by an ocean of parking lots. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/79 "2014-07-07T10:39:34Z")
The move to open-air malls is interesting, as it is sort of a return to roots for malls. A lot of the oldest malls started as open-air facilities which were later enclosed. Lenox Mall in Atlanta, for example, now Atlanta’s best known enclosed mall, started life as an open-air facility. Same for North DeKalb Mall, and many malls of that generation. A few of the early malls around here never lost their open-air character. Ansley Mall, for example. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/80 "2014-07-07T10:47:29Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > The move to open-air malls is interesting, as it is sort of a return to roots for malls. A lot of the oldest malls started as open-air facilities which were later enclosed. Lenox Mall in Atlanta, for example, now Atlanta’s best known enclosed mall, started life as an open-air facility. Same for North DeKalb Mall, and many malls of that generation. A few of the early malls around here never lost their open-air character. Ansley Mall, for example. Lenox was the shit back in the day. That’s where all the kids of Atlanta would burn the day away, especially down in the arcade. Which had skeeball. Good times, good times. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470.md?page=5)