# What killed the malls? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2014, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470 "2014-07-06T10:01:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![JohnGalt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johngalt/32/184_2.png) [@JohnGalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnGalt)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/81 "2014-07-07T13:43:41Z")
An appropriate commentary piece from the [Minneapolis Star-Tribune](http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentaries/265763111.html) covering lots of the same details. ---
**Author:** ![vd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b19c9b/32.png) [@vd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vd)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/82 "2014-07-07T14:34:59Z")
Even [Coconut Mall](http://www.mariowiki.com/Coconut_Mall) is gone now. Possibly all the cars zipping through had something to do with it. And the proliferation of mushrooms and banana peels. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/83 "2014-07-07T14:44:01Z")
> [@vd](#): > > Even [Coconut Mall](http://www.mariowiki.com/Coconut_Mall) is gone now. > > Possibly all the cars zipping through had something to do with it. And the proliferation of mushrooms and banana peels. It could never compete with more mixed-use urban centers like Delfino Square. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/84 "2014-07-07T15:00:04Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > How to open air centers work in places where it gets cold and snows? Near me this isn’t a problem, but the same guy who did Inner Harbor opened up a high class open air center north of Princeton, and if you went near Christmas in bad weather you had the place to yourself. Same as any other stores I imagine. The Lehigh Valley Mall in Whitehall, PA built an open air section adjacent to the older enclosed mall. It’s mostly higher end stores like Pottery Barn with some restaurants. In 2006, they also built the Promenade Shops nearby in Saucon Valley. That’s more of a high end open-air mall that’s described as a ["lifestyle center](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifestyle_center_(retail))". That seems to be the trend these days. You have the stores and shops and restaurants all in close proximity. But you don’t have the food courts and enclosed public spaces for people to loiter about. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/85 "2014-07-07T15:25:48Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The “urban villages” we have now are the exact same thing as malls, except without the roof. Other than that, they have all of the same virtues and vices. Really, the question shouldn’t be “why are malls dying?”, but rather “why don’t malls have roofs any more?”. > > And for those talking about “climate controlling all of that enclosed space”: It doesn’t cost to climate control space. It costs to climate control surface area and doors. And the new sort of mall without the roof probably has more total surface area than the old sort with a roof, and certainly has more doors. > [@Erdosain](#): > > I’m not sure it’s fair to lump all of this new development together. Some outdoor malls are exactly like indoor malls except the roof. Parking lots are the same, suburban location is the same. > > But many of the downtown developments are located in downtowns where a mall could never be, have extensive housing located above the retail stores, and have buried parking or multi-story parking that conserves space and doesn’t turn the new “mall” into the traditional island of retail surrounded by an ocean of parking lots. This is what I was going to say. Outdoor malls in distant suburban locations with huge parking lots or garages are no different than enclosed malls. The urban villages I’m talking about are located in population dense areas with access to bus and train lines, have bicycle rentals, no huge parking facilities, and are mixed use with not just retail stores but also groceries, weekly farmers markets, and residences. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/86 "2014-07-07T15:45:18Z")
The Mall of America has been so successful at maintaining a close to 100% occupancy rate that their Phase 2 expansion is due to open next year. They struggle for a while with their 4th floor “entertainment” district but have since reoccupied it with Dick’s Last Resort taking over the old Planet Hollywood location, a comedy club, tex-mex restarant, etc. People were a tad upset when Camp Snoopy pulled out, but the takeover by Nickelodeon Universe has been great with them investing millions in updates and new rides. A new Radisson Blu opened attached to the south side of the mall and the expansion will link directly to the IKEA. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/87 "2014-07-07T19:44:25Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > The Mall of America has been so successful at maintaining a close to 100% occupancy rate that their Phase 2 expansion is due to open next year. They struggle for a while with their 4th floor “entertainment” district but have since reoccupied it with Dick’s Last Resort taking over the old Planet Hollywood location, a comedy club, tex-mex restarant, etc. > People were a tad upset when Camp Snoopy pulled out, but the takeover by Nickelodeon Universe has been great with them investing millions in updates and new rides. A new Radisson Blu opened attached to the south side of the mall and the expansion will link directly to the IKEA. You obviously know MOA. We last visited about 8 years ago. You can really get lost in that place. Is it true the locals know the best places to park so they can quickly get into their favorite stores and restaurants? Have you seen the old home plate marker? Is the old Twins bleacher seat still hanging on a wall? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/88 "2014-07-07T20:35:48Z")
Let’s see: you’ve got a finite but gradually growing amount of retail shopping going on. Then you have overbuilding of malls, competition from the big-box stores, the revitalization of the urban cores in many cities, the decline of the breed of stores that had been the malls’ retail ‘anchors’, the Internet, and finally the crash of 2008 causing an abrupt drop in retail sales. Seems like it would have been hard to get to now without seeing a lot of malls going belly-up. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/89 "2014-07-07T21:21:51Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > You obviously know MOA. We last visited about 8 years ago. You can really get lost in that place. > > Is it true the locals know the best places to park so they can quickly get into their favorite stores and restaurants? Have you seen the old home plate marker? Is the old Twins bleacher seat still hanging on a wall? The old Met Stadium home plate marker is right in front of the entrance to the Sponge Bob roller coaster. The bleacher seat (marking where Harmon Killebrew hit his 522 foot homer) is still bolted on the wall by the log ride. Parking has been a real headache lately since the north side surface lot is gone because of the expansion, and the south side surface lot is gone because of the new Radisson Blu. On the weekends it’s best to park in the open lot to the east and walk over. My favorite place to park is on the south end of the east garage near the top. You can then walk across the 4th floor skyway and see the wall of celebrities who have visited the mall. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/90 "2014-07-07T22:00:19Z")
It’s my understanding that open air malls generally charge their tenants a flat rate whereas enclosed malls a lso tack on a percentage of revenue. That means there has to be a powerful draw from the climate controlled window shopping to make renting in an enclosed to make it worth the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Frazzled](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frazzled/32/3368_2.png) [@Frazzled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frazzled)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/91 "2014-07-07T22:45:35Z")
I’m 40 something and grew up in 80’s mall culture. The whole reason I went to the mall was for entertainment (movies and arcades) and to socialize with my friends who were at the mall at the same time. As I was thinking about this thread it dawned on me that I’ve never spent a lot of money at the mall. Sure, I’ve bought plenty of clothes at the mall but beyond that I’ll buy one or two things at a time and only small items that are easy to carry out of the mall. For any substantial purchase I tend to go to stores that cater to those specific needs - I’d never consider buying major electronics, art, furniture, or cookware at the mall for example. It’s just too much hassle there. Now, the outdoor malls I go to have very nice and clean theaters (The Angelika). They have high end restaurants, nice bars, outdoor concerts when the weather is nice, and nice well kept walking paths and streams to wander around. They even have easy access to shops should I decide to buy something but don’t want to carry it too far. I actually do buy some high dollar items there for just that reason. From a Generation X point of view malls were always first a place for socializing. When we got older malls were no longer fun so we moved on. The new outdoor malls cater to that original need, instead of focusing on cheap stores with cheap products they offer a nice place to come, sit a while, and spend lots of money on food, drinks, and entertainment. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/92 "2014-07-08T02:00:19Z")
All good answers but in the end I think that their vulnerability to zombie attack was their downfall. This was pointed out in 1978 and the enthusiasm for malls began to wane. Then in the '80s came the killer robots as seen in the 1986 classic Chopping Mall. I mean dodging zombies and killer robots, who needs that when they want a new sweater? Of course high rents, failing anchor stores, the rise of the internet and other things like these played their parts but the bottom line answer is the living dead. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/93 "2014-07-08T02:14:22Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > the bottom line answer is the living dead. Some of them worked at Sears. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/94 "2014-07-08T02:20:48Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > All good answers but in the end I think that their vulnerability to zombie attack was their downfall. This was pointed out in 1978 and the enthusiasm for malls began to wane. > > Then in the '80s came the killer robots as seen in the 1986 classic Chopping Mall. I mean dodging zombies and killer robots, who needs that when they want a new sweater? > > Of course high rents, failing anchor stores, the rise of the internet and other things like these played their parts but the bottom line answer is the living dead. High rents, failing anchor stores, the rise of the internet, _and_ zombies and robots don’t typically have much disposable income. ---
**Author:** ![Frazzled](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frazzled/32/3368_2.png) [@Frazzled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frazzled)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/95 "2014-07-08T02:26:36Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > Of course high rents, failing anchor stores, the rise of the internet and other things like these played their parts but the bottom line answer is the living dead. Daddy would have gotten us Uzis ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/96 "2014-07-08T05:54:21Z")
8 million square foot [mall.](http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/Dubai-to-build-world-s-biggest-shopping-center-5602311.phpMall) Read it and weep. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/97 "2014-07-08T09:46:24Z")
> [@Little\_Pig](#): > > 8 million square foot [mall.](http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/Dubai-to-build-world-s-biggest-shopping-center-5602311.phpMall) Read it and weep. I looked at that and really it would be classified as a mixed use development since it incorporates housing and office towers. Dubai really goes for the big stuff. They already have the worlds tallest skyscraper and they have this indoor snow skiing facility. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/98 "2014-07-08T09:52:00Z")
They’re still popular (and big new ones are still being built) in Malaysia (and, I suspect, certain other countries with rising populations with disposable income). The weather being hot as hell there helps. I wonder if there’s any small hot weather effect even in the US – after controlling for other factors, are malls in Florida doing a bit better than in other states? ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/99 "2014-07-08T11:46:37Z")
No, it appears not. Here’s the closest thing I’ve found to a list of closed shopping malls (and it’s already been linked to once). You’re welcome to correlate the number of closed malls to the population of each state: > **[DeadMalls.com: Stories](https://www.deadmalls.com/stories.html)** > > The stories and history behind the great era of store chains that defined retail. The history of many now dead malls. Pictures, articles, etc. I don’t see any tendency for there to be more closings in colder states. There may even be a tendency for more closings in warmer states. I think the warm weather in Malaysia has nothing to do with the increase in shopping malls. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470/100 "2014-07-08T15:28:21Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Living in Minnesota, we are just as fond of climate control - but its really expensive to heat the darn things - which means rent is high - which means that its hard for stores to turn a profit. In a strip mall, the space you heat is the store footage. In a big box store the space you heat is the store footage. In an enclosed mall - you pay to heat a lot of space used for not selling things. > > Mall of America does pretty well, between locals and tourists it gets enough business to retain tenants, although one of its anchors is gone and hasn’t been replaced (Bloomingdales). You know that MoA isn’t heated? It is passively heated by windows, lights, and shopper’s body heat. Speaking of heat, the comment that open air malls are just like enclosed malls doesn’t fly here in Arizona. Check out one of the newer ones: [Tempe marketplace](https://maps.google.com/maps?q=tempe+marketplace&ll=33.431209,-111.902425&spn=0.011031,0.018668&oe=utf-8&client=firefox&fb=1&gl=us&cid=3543089811591528164&t=h&z=16) You don’t really want to be walking from Target or Michael’s on the west side to the theater in summer. Think Lawrence of Arabia here. Oddly enough, they have an open air fireplace going all year around in front of the theater. And the “small town” malls? Who thought that was a good idea? A shopping area set up like a small town, with shops on narrow streets and parallel (or angle) parking in front. Doesn’t work too well with big city volume. Can’t find a space, can’t see to back out, have to avoid the pesky pedestrians while trying to spot a space. [Santan Village](https://maps.google.com/maps?q=tempe+marketplace&ll=33.308787,-111.742908&spn=0.000976,0.001167&oe=utf-8&client=firefox&fb=1&gl=us&cid=3543089811591528164&t=h&z=20) It usually isn’t this empty, though. I’ve never seen it without most of the in front spaces filled. If you can’t get one of the few spaces, you can always park in the surrounding mall sized lot and walk in. (zoom out to see how big the lot is!) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-killed-the-malls/692470.md?page=6)