# What kind of bartender can't mix a martini? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 15, 2019, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-bartender-cant-mix-a-martini/840250 "2019-09-15T05:32:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-bartender-cant-mix-a-martini/840250/81 "2019-09-18T08:16:59Z")
Well, if I’m having a cocktail, it’d have to be a mocktail. 😉 I don’t drink alcohol. Anyway, the way I see it, it’s [whatever the cocktail name is] with [whatever other options are to be added/deducted]. Don’t get all muddled! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-bartender-cant-mix-a-martini/840250/82 "2019-09-18T10:12:27Z")
> [@FluffyBob](#): > > Red Lobster ? Its a kid working in a place that probably has a section in the drink menu labelled ‘martinis’ - sweet colourful beverages in cool little conical glasses that never contain gin. I actually prefer vodka martinis. Which I typically get at my local old-school steakhouse bar. Not Red Lobster or Houlihan’s. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-bartender-cant-mix-a-martini/840250/83 "2019-09-18T10:31:22Z")
A barista. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-bartender-cant-mix-a-martini/840250/84 "2019-09-18T11:39:56Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Before beginning the bartender should ask what kind of liquor the customer wants (Whiskey, Bourbon, Rye, Brandy, or even SoCo is acceptable) and if they want sweet or sour. See, that’s a Wisconsin Old Fashioned. For somebody who has traveled so much, you should have realized that’s the way it’s locally done. It’s not how Old Fashioned are done anywhere else in the world, so far as I know. [Read the history here](http://www.themidwestival.com/blog/2015/1/15/the-wisconsin-old-fashioned-an-abridged-history). > [@](#): > > The national version of America’s first craft cocktail — the Old Fashioned — uses whiskey. Also, bitters, also sugar. An Old Fashioned in Wisconsin, however, is brandy by nature, and you “wash” — this is an old school bartenders’ term for mixer — with seltzer, sweet (7up or Sprite) or sour (sour soda of your preference). You can also muddle in the orange and cherry before you mix, but that’s not necessarily requisite. The orange and cherry garnish is non-negotiable, however. Old dudes garnish theirs with olives. As for the term “press,” I do not think it’s a well-known bartending term. I think that’s also a Wisconsonian term used in ordering Old Fashioneds. It’s a bit like when I discovered Italian beefs weren’t universal, or that giardiniera is either unknown or something a bit different outside the Chicago area. (Like the Old Fashioned, both Chicago giardiniera and Italian giardiniera have some elements in common, but are different enough be noticed.) ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-bartender-cant-mix-a-martini/840250/85 "2019-09-18T11:48:45Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > See, that’s a Wisconsin Old Fashioned. For somebody who has traveled so much, you should have realized that’s the way it’s locally done. It’s not how Old Fashioned are done anywhere else in the world, so far as I know. Look in any bartenders guide and you’ll see the Wisconsin version is pretty much what they are supposed to be. They’re aren’t done anywhere, really. Like I told you, more than half the time you get deer in headlights looks when just uttering the words “Old Fashioned”. The other half the time they make them completely a mess. The Wisconsin version is pretty much what is reciped in every bartenders guide. I’ve never seen them outside the U.S… And I’ve been to over 2 dozen countries! > [@pulykamell](#): > > As for the term “press,” I do not think it’s a well-known bartending term. I think that’s also a Wisconsonian term used in ordering Old Fashioneds. Nonsense. An old school bartender anywhere in the U.S. knows the term for plain soda water is press due to the location of it on the spray gun. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-bartender-cant-mix-a-martini/840250/86 "2019-09-18T12:01:29Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > The Wisconsin version is pretty much what is reciped in every bartenders guide. Look, i don’t find that to be the case. Everywhere outside of Wisconsin I’ve had an Old Fashioned, you don’t specify stuff like “sweet” or “sour” or “press.” Maybe the whiskey, but if you asked for brandy, you’d get a very odd look indeed. All those are Wisconsin things. Read the article I linked to, written by a Wisconsonian, and interviewing Wisconsonian bartenders. > [@](#): > > Nonsense. An old school bartender anywhere in the U.S. knows the term for plain soda water is press due to the location of it on the spray gun. But “press” in Wisconsin when ordering an old fashioned doesn’t mean “seltzer.” It means a mix of 7-up and Seltzer. I’m familiar with it and what it is because that’s exactly my standard Old Fashioned order in Wisconsin: Brandy old fashioned press. ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-bartender-cant-mix-a-martini/840250/87 "2019-09-18T12:46:52Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > I doubt you travel as much or as often as I. In June we were in Phoenix, Hell Paso, and Denver. Upscale restaurants too. “Uh, is that a whiskey drink”. Over Labor Day I was in Minneapolis. Bartender at the Grand Hotel had to ask another one how to make an Old Fashioned. Haven’t been to those places in a while, but I can report back that you can get decent Old Fashioneds in San Francisco, Boise, Chicago, and Schaumburg IL. OK, those last two aren’t THAT surprising, being relatively close to Wisconsin, but Boise/SF are pretty far away. That said, I don’t even bother to try if it’s not an actual cocktail bar or upscale-ish restaurant, so maybe I’m playing the odds. You are right in that any dive bar in Wisconsin (or even up here in the Upper Peninsula of Wisconsin) can make an Old Fashioned. Not so much in the lesser states. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-bartender-cant-mix-a-martini/840250/88 "2019-09-18T13:16:27Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Look, i don’t find that to be the case. Everywhere outside of Wisconsin I’ve had an Old Fashioned, you don’t specify stuff like “sweet” or “sour” or “press.”. The customer shouldn’t have to order press. The bartender should already know that. Press is just sparkling water. If bartenders are using the term press for white soda they are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-bartender-cant-mix-a-martini/840250/89 "2019-09-18T13:32:22Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Now, as it happens, I could have made a perfectly decent martini. An old-fashioned, too, and even a **Manhattan**. But nobody ever ordered any of those. > > snip > > But something like a Long Island Iced Tea, or an old-fashioned, or a **Manhattan** , or a daiquiri or a margarita? Make up your mind, can i get a manhattan or not? > [@pkbites](#): > > Before beginning the bartender should ask what kind of liquor the customer wants (Whiskey, Bourbon, Rye, Brandy, or even SoCo is acceptable) and if they want sweet or sour. > > snip > > Come to a Wisconsin rural supper club and see what a proper Old Fashioned should taste like. Celestial! lol ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-bartender-cant-mix-a-martini/840250/90 "2019-09-18T13:58:07Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I would not see this as cause for complaint. I’d tip extra for that “shot”. > [@cutman74](#): > > I may be a Phillistine, but I’ll just have a vodka martian rinse the glass with dry vermouth and toss in an olive. I think you had a few martians before you posted. 😃 As far as cocktails go, unless it is a place I know can mix good drinks, I’m sticking to beer or a straight up bourbon. Can’t really fuck those up (well, dirty beer lines can). My cocktail of choice is a Manhattan and most places that don’t make good drinks tend to serve you an Old Fashioned in a martini glass. Red Lobster can’t make good food so I doubt their cocktails are up there either. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-bartender-cant-mix-a-martini/840250/91 "2019-09-18T14:05:36Z")
“Give me a tall glass of warm gin with a human hair in it.” ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-bartender-cant-mix-a-martini/840250/92 "2019-09-18T14:18:24Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > “Give me a tall glass of warm gin with a human hair in it.” Oh, well look at you. A _human_ hair. La di dah. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-bartender-cant-mix-a-martini/840250/93 "2019-09-18T14:23:56Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > The customer shouldn’t have to order press. The bartender should already know that. Press is just sparkling water. If bartenders are using the term press for white soda they are wrong. I suppose “press” may mean different things in different parts of Wisconsin, or depending on the bartender, but when I order “press” it’s a mix of 7-up and seltzer. From [madison.com](https://madison.com/entertainment/dining/salud-the-old-fashioned-wisconsin-s-cocktail/article_91c48c83-8b06-5ff8-ac4d-1a1df8044f73.html): > [@](#): > > Variations are legion. Order an Old Fashioned “soda” to replace the 7-Up with seltzer, a “sour” to get one with sour mix, and a “press,” short for Presbyterian, to get a mix of seltzer and lemon-lime soda. Old Fashioneds made with bourbon or rye whiskey are common too. Or here is an article from [The Journal-Sentinel](https://www.jsonline.com/story/life/food/drinks/2016/11/18/new-way-drink-old-fashioneds/93500124/): > [@](#): > > I grew up in Sheboygan, and my dad made old-fashioneds at home for parties. Both my dad and my mom, the only thing they drank was old-fashioneds or beer. **My dad did brandy old-fashioned sweet. My mom did brandy old-fashioned press, which is sweet and seltzer.** People make them all kinds of different ways. Brandy old-fashioned sweet is our biggest seller, and Wisconsin’s unofficial state cocktail. Emphasis mine. This is also how the terminology was explained to me by a close friend who used to tend bar in Milwaukee in the 90s, and when I order a brandy old fashioned press in Wisconsin, I get a mix of 7-up and seltzer. Maybe you bars do it differently. Maybe old school bartenders do it differently. I don’t know, but “press” in regards to old fashioneds I’ve always known to be a mix of sweet and seltzer. Regardless, I don’t think anywhere else in the States you’d see a bartender topping off an old fashioned with 7-up or Squirt the way you do in Wisconsin. I’m not a fan of regular old fashioneds, but I do like the Wisconsin version as a more easy drinking drink. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-bartender-cant-mix-a-martini/840250/94 "2019-09-18T14:41:48Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Come to a Wisconsin rural supper club and see what a proper Old Fashioned should taste like. Celestial! Any recommendations for places to get a well-crafted authentic Old Fashioned? And, by the way, what IS a “Supper club”? I remember being taken to them as a child, but didn’t know why they were different from any other restaurant (I would’ve said “umm, they’re darker, with a lot more drinks, tons of food, and people are really friendly”). ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-bartender-cant-mix-a-martini/840250/95 "2019-09-18T14:43:45Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Because there is a right way to do things and there is a fucked up way. > > Just like the OP said one doesn’t put sweet vermouth in a martini, smoke and pre-mix do not belong in an Old Fashioned. Have the bartender piss in your glass for all I care. Just don’t call it an Old Fashioned. WTF is pre-mix? And why would it be in an Old Fashioned? Generally speaking, it’s some kind of spirit, some water, bitters and sugar. With or without muddled fruit, etc… If jackasses are putting sour mix/lemon juice/soda/liqueurs/etc… in there, they’re making daisies, fizzes, sours or improved \ cocktails, or whatever, but NOT Old Fashioneds. It’s like putting something in a \*cocktail \*glass and calling it a \ **Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-bartender-cant-mix-a-martini/840250/96 "2019-09-18T14:44:16Z") > [@wguy123](#): > > As far as cocktails go, unless it is a place I know can mix good drinks, I’m sticking to beer or a straight up bourbon. Can’t really fuck those up (well, dirty beer lines can). My cocktail of choice is a Manhattan and most places that don’t make good drinks tend to serve you an Old Fashioned in a martini glass. Red Lobster can’t make good food so I doubt their cocktails are up there either. 😃 Yep. A Manhattan is my cocktail of choice but I’ll never order one any place I haven’t been before. Very few places know how to make a proper one\*, or have the ingredients for that matter. In fact, I have to be careful even in the places I usually order one, because hipster doofuses, LA trust-fund douchebags and hip-hop asshats order the worst possible combinations and the bartenders never know whether or not you know what you are doing. It’s going to be ugly for all concerned if my 20-year-old single malt is delivered on the rocks. - - Rye, dammit! RYE!!! And none of that homeopathy with the vermouth, either. Served up, in a martini or coupe glass with Luxardo cherries. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-bartender-cant-mix-a-martini/840250/97 "2019-09-18T14:47:29Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Yep. A Manhattan is my cocktail of choice but I’ll never order one any place I haven’t been before. Very few places know how to make a proper one\*, or have the ingredients for that matter. > > In fact, I have to be careful even in the places I usually order one, because hipster doofuses, LA trust-fund douchebags and hip-hop asshats order the worst possible combinations and the bartenders never know whether or not you know what you are doing. It’s going to be ugly for all concerned if my 20-year-old single malt is delivered on the rocks. > > - > - Rye, dammit! RYE!!! And none of that homeopathy with the vermouth, either. Served up, in a martini or coupe glass with Luxardo cherries. I give this all a +1. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-bartender-cant-mix-a-martini/840250/98 "2019-09-18T14:59:39Z")
> [@bump](#): > > If jackasses are putting sour mix/lemon juice/soda/liqueurs/etc… in there, they’re making daisies, fizzes, sours or improved \ cocktails, or whatever, but NOT Old Fashioneds. [Here’s the Milwaukee tourism’s Youtube page](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iycpi20MecU) showing what a Wisconsin old fashioned looks like. You will note the use of brandy (though you get a choice, but Korbel brandy seems to be the default there) and the top off of soda of your choice at the end to be different than what is known as an old fashioned in much of the rest of the US. [Something like this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN4c6tCYjcE) is what I expect everywhere else but Wisconsin. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-bartender-cant-mix-a-martini/840250/99 "2019-09-18T15:12:05Z")
After years of being served crap gin martinis I finally gave up and just ordered “Bombay Blue Sapphire, shaken, with an olive” Even then sometimes I’ll get a vermouth infused drink. The worst was when I ordered a Martini in a hotel bar and asked for it to be extremely dry. The bartender in his infinite wisdom thought that the way to make an extremely dry martini was to add more dry vermouth. Not realizing that, I politely said it wasn’t even close to dry and sent it back. What came back was a glass of dry vermouth. I got up and went to the bar. The bartender, a young guy, said he was sorry and it was his first martini. After an explanation of “dryness” I walked him through the process, handed him a large tip, and took my martini back to my table. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-bartender-cant-mix-a-martini/840250/100 "2019-09-18T15:13:37Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > [Here’s the Milwaukee tourism’s Youtube page](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iycpi20MecU) showing what a Wisconsin old fashioned looks like. You will note the use of brandy (though you get a choice, but Korbel brandy seems to be the default there)… Darn right Korbel is the default brandy. “Wisconsin is our number one state,” says Margie Healy, director of public relations for the California-based Korbel. “We export 385,000 cases a year, and 139,000 go directly to Wisconsin. That’s one-third of our total production.” Hilariously, that’s [from an article](https://onmilwaukee.com/bars/articles/brandy.html) where they have no clue as to why… “It’s easy to speculate that the long winters are partially responsible. Hot drinks like the brandy alexander and the hot toddy are not only popular winter cocktails, but also believed by some to reduce the effects of colds and flus… There is absolutely nothing historically that explains brandy’s popularity in Wisconsin”. But we know why… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-bartender-cant-mix-a-martini/840250.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-bartender-cant-mix-a-martini/840250.md?page=6)