# What kind of economy does the Federation have in the Star Trek universe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 6, 2003, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-economy-does-the-federation-have-in-the-star-trek-universe/217336 "2003-12-06T06:18:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-economy-does-the-federation-have-in-the-star-trek-universe/217336/41 "2003-12-07T18:19:22Z")
I think they’ve also explained that food replicators do start with some sort of organic raw material, too. I seem to recall that the raw material is nutritive, and could be eaten as itself, in an emergency. This can be reconciled with them working via energy-matter conversion: That doesn’t say where the energy came from in the first place, and after all, transporters also work via energy-matter conversion. So you start with your E-rat sludge, beam it into crewmember kitchens, and in the process rearrange it into pecan pie. I gather that they can make almost any changes to the stuff in the process, but that it’s easiest to transform it into something similar to the source material. Also, the reason that latinum (whatever that is) is used as specie in the first place is the fact that it’s not replicable. It’s not just happy coincidence that the money-stuff can’t be mass-produced. This does suggest, though, that gold, platinum, and all the other usual suspects _are_ replicable (though perhaps with more difficulty than pecan pie). As for prosperity, maybe they have eliminated poverty etc… in the Federation. Consider the modern United States. One could very reasonably argue that we have eliminated poverty… here. While there are still folks in this country who are not well-off, nobody in the US starves to death any more. But at this moment there are still starving people in Somalia, and Afghanistan, and many other places. So maybe the Federation is the same way: They’re proud that they’ve eliminated many social problems in the Federation, but there are still many humans not in the Federation, perhaps even on Earth, who may not be so well off. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-economy-does-the-federation-have-in-the-star-trek-universe/217336/42 "2003-12-07T18:29:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Vlad Dracul \* > \*\*Tom Paris is a white helmsman. However, he was a convicted felon before Janeway picked him out for the job, so maybe that makes him effectively non-white. \*\* Working on the famous American “criminal \<\> nigger” standard, at any rate. However, I had forgotten that Tom Paris was helmsman on Voyager. I thought it was Harry Kim, who if I now recall correctly was navigation officer. ---
**Author:** ![myles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/779978/32.png) [@myles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/myles)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-economy-does-the-federation-have-in-the-star-trek-universe/217336/43 "2003-12-07T18:45:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chronos \* > \*\*Consider the modern United States. One could very reasonably argue that we have eliminated poverty… here. While there are still folks in this country who are not well-off, nobody in the US starves to death any more. But at this moment there are still starving people in Somalia, and Afghanistan, and many other places. So maybe the Federation is the same way: They’re proud that they’ve eliminated many social problems in the Federation, but there are still many humans not in the Federation, perhaps even on Earth, who may not be so well off. \*\* United States Population below poverty line: 12.7% (2001 est.) CIA World Factbook ---
**Author:** ![myles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/779978/32.png) [@myles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/myles)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-economy-does-the-federation-have-in-the-star-trek-universe/217336/44 "2003-12-07T18:47:33Z")
Also, remember the scene with the Doc Hologram in Voyager, where we see thousands of holograms working as slave labor in the mines. Therefore, non-hologram life forms may enjoy life, however, this is only at the expense of the chattel slavery of hologram life forms. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-economy-does-the-federation-have-in-the-star-trek-universe/217336/45 "2003-12-07T21:29:15Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Evil Death_ > **Uh, Deep Space Nine wasn’t a starship, last time I checked.** No, but the Defiant was. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lady Ice \* > \*\*I always saw Torres in Voyager as being Hispanic. (her human half anyway) Then they cast a white guy as her father. :rolleyes: \*\* Hispanics can be white, too. Spain is, after all, part of Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Vlad\_Dracul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/50afbb/32.png) [@Vlad\_Dracul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vlad_Dracul)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-economy-does-the-federation-have-in-the-star-trek-universe/217336/46 "2003-12-07T21:59:23Z")
Myles, True… the CIA (or somebody) has drawn an arbitrary line based on personal income and decreed that those beneath it are in “poverty”. ``` How political do you suppose THAT process was? I would argue that such figures are essentially meaningless outside of direct comparison. ``` By Ethiopian standards, those “poor” people are comfortably wealthy: they have clothes, roofs over their heads, some of them eat enough to be grossly obese, and they seldom have to step around the mounds of excrement that are blessedly absent from our city streets. We’ve eliminated poverty!! But wait! By 1700’s standards, I am terribly poor: I don’t own a single horse, slave, or acre of arable land. We’re plagued by poverty!! You see, it’s simply a matter of what you choose to set as a standard, and is thus meaningless except in direct comparison between subjects to whom identical standards are applied. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-economy-does-the-federation-have-in-the-star-trek-universe/217336/47 "2003-12-07T22:01:40Z")
> [@](#): > > United States > Population below poverty line: 12.7% (2001 est.) > CIA World Factbook Poverty (by the poverty line definition) is still a far cry for starvation. The typical American welfare recipient is a lot better off than the typical third-worlder. It says a lot about our economic comfort that our standard of “poverty” is consistent with owning a house, holding down a secure job, and feeding and raising a couple of kids to adulthood. ---
**Author:** ![myles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/779978/32.png) [@myles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/myles)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-economy-does-the-federation-have-in-the-star-trek-universe/217336/48 "2003-12-07T22:08:01Z")
So, basically, poverty is a cultural and social idea, depending on the particular definitions, values, and expectancies of the specific culture group or political or economic state. So, the question would be, if poverty is an entirely relative, cultural concept, what has allowed the Federation to eliminate this “cultural icon or idea”? One could argue that the Federation has eliminated poverty because they believe they have, in other words, the society and culture of the Federation does not allow the acceptance of the IDEA of poverty, and therefore that is why poverty no longer exists, completely regardless of any actual circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-economy-does-the-federation-have-in-the-star-trek-universe/217336/49 "2003-12-07T22:50:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aesiron \* > \*\*Barter, most likely. > > With the prevalence of replicators, there really is no need for money in the 24th Century since anything that anyone would need could be made with a command. There are obviously some cases where that wouldn’t be true, like on the frontier (DS9), and I assume in those instances, people are given precious materials like gold, platinum, latinum, etc to trade with “lesser evolved economies” like the Ferengi and so on. \*\* Quick nitpick, altho’ I dunno if you meant to imply it: one of the big reasons that I understand why latinum is so valuable is that it CAN’T be replicated, due to its unstable molecular structure or something like that. So maybe the monetary part of the system is based around such materials (which obviously probably have some sort of secondary use, like gold and diamonds do now)? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-economy-does-the-federation-have-in-the-star-trek-universe/217336/50 "2003-12-07T23:26:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Death \* > _Uh_, Deep Space Nine wasn’t a starship, last time I checked. No, but the Defiant was, and Sisko was her captain. > [@](#): > > As for Wesley Crusher, he’s the most hated individual in the Trekverse including Neelix. Irrelevant. He is demonstrable proof against your asinine assertion. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2003, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-economy-does-the-federation-have-in-the-star-trek-universe/217336/51 "2003-12-08T00:03:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by friedo \* > \*\*Irrelevant. He is demonstrable proof against your asinine assertion. \*\* Take your ad hominems to the Pit, friedo, where you may masturbate to your heart’s content - alone. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2003, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-economy-does-the-federation-have-in-the-star-trek-universe/217336/52 "2003-12-08T00:27:25Z")
_Chekov_, anyone? Remember, the Rooskie from TOS? He was a helmsman. And, technically, Sulu was an astrophysicist on his first appearance. There was a white woman at the helm of the _Grissom_ in ST: III. And as for Torres’ father being “white”…well, who’s to say that the Torres family couldn’t marry “outside it’s race,” in the few hundred years between now and the 24th century? With racial mixing, they might have been “white” for a couple of hundred years already. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2003, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-economy-does-the-federation-have-in-the-star-trek-universe/217336/53 "2003-12-08T00:52:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ranchoth \* > **_Chekov_, anyone? Remember, the Rooskie from TOS? He was a helmsman.** Now I’m pretty sure this time that Chekov was navigation officer. I _do_ know that Kirk frequently said “Take us out, Mr Sulu”, which is more than a suggestion that he was at the helm, yes? \*\* > [@](#): > > And as for Torres’ father being “white”…well, who’s to say that the Torres family couldn’t marry “outside it’s race,” in the few hundred years between now and the 24th century? With racial mixing, they might have been “white” for a couple of hundred years already. \*\* If the Torres family are now interbred to be white and the Picards are now English, surely there must be some families that have married heavily into Hispanic strains? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2003, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-economy-does-the-federation-have-in-the-star-trek-universe/217336/54 "2003-12-08T01:10:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Death \* > \*\*Take your ad hominems to the Pit, friedo, where you may masturbate to your heart’s content - alone. \*\* You might want to look up the definition of _ad hominem_. Here, I’ll help: > **[Definition of ad hominem | Dictionary.com](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ad-hominem)** > > Definition of ad hominem from Dictionary.com, the world’s leading online source for English definitions, pronunciations, word origins, idioms, Word of the Day, and more. > [@](#): > > Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason. I never called _you_ asinine, just your assertion, which I have proven to be false. Let’s go through this step by step. You said: > [@](#): > > Especially when 100% of helmsmen are Asian or black and 100% of starship captains are white I, and a couple others, point out that: 1. Captain Sisko is black, and a starship captain 2. Wesley Crusher is white, and a helmsman. In case you still don’t get it, these facts make you what we in the reason business call “wrong.” Normally I wouln’t even bother pointing this out, except that I get remarkably pissed off when people make accusations of racism in places where it’s clearly not the case. So are you going to admit your mistake, or just remand me to the Pit again instead? ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2003, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-economy-does-the-federation-have-in-the-star-trek-universe/217336/55 "2003-12-08T03:55:40Z")
Perhaps you guys could stop the (totally off-topic) pissing contest, so maybe this thread could get back on track? ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2003, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-economy-does-the-federation-have-in-the-star-trek-universe/217336/56 "2003-12-08T04:51:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Death \* > \*\*If the Torres family are now interbred to be white and the Picards are now English, surely there must be some families that have married heavily into Hispanic strains? \*\* Sure, why not? It’s plausible enough, it’s just that we haven’t seen them—_yet_—on the series. But, heck, for all we know, maybe one of the “swarthy” complexioned red shirts walking down a corridor was really a character named José Stakanov (“José Vasilovich” to friends and family.) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2003, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-economy-does-the-federation-have-in-the-star-trek-universe/217336/57 "2003-12-08T05:15:43Z")
Y’know, I was always kinda disappointed that the _NextGen_ was _less_ diverse than the original series. The British-French captain, whitebread First Officer, whitebread doctor, whitebread doctor’s son, whitebread security officer, Oreo helmsman-later-engineer, culturally neutral android, culturally neutral counsellor (the only time Betazoid culture ever came up was during those agonizing Majel Barett episodes, and it looked unnecessarily goofy with all the golden chalice and five rings crap). But for the Klingon, the original _NextGen_ cast was beige in their blanditude. As for economics, it’s clear nobody writing for any of the shows ever really cared enough to spell it out, leaving it for us speculators. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2003, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-economy-does-the-federation-have-in-the-star-trek-universe/217336/58 "2003-12-08T05:20:27Z")
The helmsman on Pike’s Enterprise was Lieutenant Jose Tyler. A hispanic. Can you please drop this subject or at least take it to the other recent thread on the Ferengi, where it’d at least be _on topic_ now? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-economy-does-the-federation-have-in-the-star-trek-universe/217336/59 "2003-12-11T23:36:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Death \* > \*\*Especially when 100% of helmsmen are Asian or black and 100% of starship captains are white (Sulu only got promoted because he hung around with Kirk). Maybe in the Trekverse the South won the Civil War? > > Still, I suppose they managed to “evolve away” Hispanics. :rolleyes: \*\* You’re right - if only all starship captains were black we’d have equality. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-economy-does-the-federation-have-in-the-star-trek-universe/217336.md?page=2)