# What kind of God would you believe in and follow **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643 "2013-03-22T15:12:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/181 "2013-03-25T19:46:13Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > There is no such thing as death, only the loss of the body. Then why live at all? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/182 "2013-03-25T20:04:55Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > But either we can use logic here or we cannot. We can’t just apply it when we like the answers, and ignore it when we don’t. I guess I’m with the theists on this one in that god isn’t subject to logic - at least I’ve not heard a compelling argument for why he should be. But he is subject to questions, as are theists and their beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/183 "2013-03-25T20:08:08Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I would hate to have to live in a world with this God. What you’re describing is being trapped in an artificial world designed to teach you some lesson that a supernatural being thinks you need to learn. The only way out is death, except you get tossed right back in in a new body, with no memories, to try it again. Each life has no meaning beyond attempts to grasp this grand lesson being dangled before us, which boils down to “BE LIKE I AM, FOR I CREATED YOU!” God does not force you to come into physical life (remember free will) you do so by choice only. It is the courageous and daring that do so. Some find they can’t handle it and leave by their own hand. I believe it takes an anchor to do well here. The religious find it in their God. Some find it in accumulating wealth. There are many anchors. One can opt for one or not, you have free will. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/184 "2013-03-25T20:29:10Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > God does not force you to come into physical life (remember free will) you do so by choice only. It is the courageous and daring that do so. Some find they can’t handle it and leave by their own hand. I believe it takes an anchor to do well here. The religious find it in their God. Some find it in accumulating wealth. There are many anchors. One can opt for one or not, you have free will. So what you are saying, correct me if I’m wrong, is that your preffered god treats human life and existance as a playground. Life is just a revolving door. He is not interested in this realm in the least because souls can freely come and go as they choose, per above. So none of this matters one damn bit. Why are you working so hard to please him in this life? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/185 "2013-03-25T20:34:02Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > So what you are saying, correct me if I’m wrong, is that your preffered god treats human life and existance as a playground. Life is just a revolving door. He is not interested in this realm in the least because souls can freely come and go as they choose, per above. So none of this matters one damn bit. Why are you working so hard to please him in this life? I am not working to please Him, He is already pleased with me and everyone else. The physical life is an accelerated learning school that you don’t need to attend. Learning and growth is important to us as it is to new born babies. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/186 "2013-03-25T20:38:34Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > God does not force you to come into physical life (remember free will) you do so by choice only. It is the courageous and daring that do so. Some find they can’t handle it and leave by their own hand. I believe it takes an anchor to do well here. The religious find it in their God. Some find it in accumulating wealth. There are many anchors. One can opt for one or not, you have free will. I chose to be born? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/187 "2013-03-25T20:38:53Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I am not working to please Him, He is already pleased with me and everyone else. > > The physical life is an accelerated learning school that you don’t need to attend. > > Learning and growth is important to us as it is to new born babies. _How can you know all this if we are all ignorant about God? Are YOU the exception?_ ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/188 "2013-03-25T21:01:31Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > We are assuming we have an idea of what god wants. We do not. We cannot even assume that god cares about the outcome. Except that that’'s not what most people want to believe about God, and therefore that’s not an acceptable conception of God. God’s nature is based on wish fulfillment, not facts. I’ve often heard believers use phrases like “is that the kind of God you want to believe in?” as if it was an _actual meaningful argument_ about the nature of God. And besides, once you start changing “God” so much that it no longer fits the mythology, then you aren’t really talking about “God” at all, you’re talking about _another_ mythical being. Something that often happens in arguments like this I note. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/189 "2013-03-25T22:06:19Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > So the duty to work to reduce suffering, within the limits of one’s power, applies to man and God both? And God’s unlimited power means that he should reduce suffering to none? I would rephrase that to better answer the OP’s question, as you seem to want to go down a tangent to some ulterior purpose. If someone has unlimited power and is defined to be a god, I would only follow him if he uses that power for good. His “duty” is irrelevant, the question is what kind of god would I follow. I would only follow a benevolent one that uses its powers to reduce suffering. I would not follow any other kind > [@lekatt](#): > > if you want God to correct the problems of this world then you must give up your free will to make your own choices because God will make them for you. Free will is a means to an end and has no value in and of itself. We’re all supposedly happy in heaven right? So heaven has no free will? The ultimate goal of any sentient life is to be happy by whatever definition one considers valid. If I had no free will but was happy, I would be fine. It is logically impossible for me to be happy but unhappy about my lack of free will. Either I’m completely happy or I’m not ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/190 "2013-03-25T22:33:03Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > > [@Mijin](#): > > > > But either we can use logic here or we cannot. We can’t just apply it when we like the answers, and ignore it when we don’t. > > I guess I’m with the theists on this one in that god isn’t subject to logic - at least I’ve not heard a compelling argument for why he should be. But he is subject to questions, as are theists and their beliefs. What kind of questions can we ask without logic or even rational thought? Simply put, if we can’t use logic when discussing god then there’s nothing we can say about that concept at all. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/191 "2013-03-25T22:35:57Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I just heard last week children can be cured of AIDS > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Cite, please…unless this was just another voice in your head. A reference to [this](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/03/baby-cured-of-hiv_n_2803041.html) story perhaps? Not that it has anything to do with gods of any kind, just medical science. > [@lekatt](#): > > if you want God to correct the problems of this world then you must give up your free will to make your own choices because God will make them for you. That’s nonsense. Plenty of the misery in the world has nothing to do with “free will”, and plenty more that is against people’s will. There’s an immense amount even a pretty weak god could do to make the world better without violating anybody’s “free will” in the process. Not that such a violation is some innate moral evil in the first place; we don’t have to let a serial killer keep killing just because that’s what he wants to do. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > I guess I’m with the theists on this one in that god isn’t subject to logic - at least I’ve not heard a compelling argument for why he should be. Then there’s nothing meaningful that can be said or even thought about the subject, and theists should remain silent. But they won’t; as **Mijin** said, God is only “beyond logic” when it is _convenient_ for him to be. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > If I had no free will but was happy, I would be fine. That’s a stance that validates the use of mind control to enslave people, as long as you make them happy as part of the control. So no, I disagree. As somebody once said, happiness alone isn’t enough, unless you’re a cow. And I’m not a cow. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/192 "2013-03-25T23:16:40Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Provides a safe place for us to learn the right choices (earth) My broken wrist, shoulder, and leg, each broken separately, over several years, would seem to indicate that (earth) ain’t too terribly safe. God’s falling down on the job you’ve defined for him. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/193 "2013-03-25T23:31:44Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s a stance that validates the use of mind control to enslave people, as long as you make them happy as part of the control. So no, I disagree. As somebody once said, happiness alone isn’t enough, unless you’re a cow. And I’m not a cow. That’s only if you think of the world in terms of movie plots. I can see it now, lobotomies for everyone like that Star Trek or Twilight Zone episode, or people hooked up to the Matrix living out “regular” lives. That kind of fantasy works in fiction because fiction require some conflict, some problem that needs to be resolved. In the real world, our imaginations need not be limited by such tropes. I don’t need free will if all my needs were taken care of, all my whims catered to, my every desire at my beck and call. That’s not mind control, that’s just giving people what they want. A god by definition with the power to do that is able to give all these to every person. I would follow such a god. I am certainly NOT talking about a Matrix-like scenario where reality is not what you suspect it to be, and we’re all warm bodies hooked up to a pleasure generator. My idea of true happiness doesn’t supplant thought, it caters to it. Such a thing need not affect free will, and even if one had none, it wouldn’t be bad in this situation ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/194 "2013-03-25T23:37:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What lesson is learned when a child is raped and dies of AIDS? Raping kids is bad, m’kay. Don’t rape kids. It’s bad, m’kay. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2013, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/195 "2013-03-26T00:39:36Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I chose to be born? Right for being born Wrong for being created ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2013, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/196 "2013-03-26T00:41:13Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > My broken wrist, shoulder, and leg, each broken separately, over several years, would seem to indicate that (earth) ain’t too terribly safe. God’s falling down on the job you’ve defined for him. No, I said He didn’t interfere with your life. ---
**Author:** ![Scholar\_Beardpig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Scholar\_Beardpig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scholar_Beardpig)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2013, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/197 "2013-03-26T05:30:15Z")
Given the universe as it is, and since no solution presents itself to the Problem of Evil, the only God I could believe in would be either actively malicious, ultimately impotent, or just absurdly flippant. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2013, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/198 "2013-03-26T05:46:02Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > It was the heart attack that caused the NDE. But did you go back to the doctor after that? Yes or no? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2013, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/199 "2013-03-26T10:42:03Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > But did you go back to the doctor after that? Yes or no? Yes ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2013, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/200 "2013-03-26T11:04:51Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Yes That morning? That week? That month? That year? _Did the doctor confirm that you had a heart attack that night?_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643.md?page=11)