# What kind of God would you believe in and follow **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643 "2013-03-22T15:12:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/101 "2013-03-24T17:04:59Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Close without the nightmare. Dream or nightmare, makes little to no difference. Neither is real. ---
**Author:** ![Turek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/turek/32/18782_2.png) [@Turek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turek)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/102 "2013-03-24T17:09:42Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Would you believe in a God that judges no one, loves everyone, and keeps you safe at all times. My stuffed monkey does the same thing. That doesn’t make it a deity. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/103 "2013-03-24T17:10:39Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > My goodness, I didn’t see you there. My goodness, I’ve read everything single thing you’ve written about your bad dream, both here and elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/104 "2013-03-24T18:20:36Z")
There’s only 2 types of god I would follow: 1. A completely benevolent god that fixes everything in the universe and eliminates all suffering 2. A god that is benevolent and tries to fix everything, but doesn’t have the power to do it I would not follow an uncaring, unknowable, hands-off god. Why bother? He doesn’t care about you and I won’t care about it. I would not follow a god who is only kind of benevolent and has the power to eliminate suffering. As long as he has the power, he should cure all suffering, otherwise, he’s a sadist. There is absolutely no reason why, if one has the power, one shouldn’t eliminate suffering somehow, and do so immediately. Any thing that allows the amount of suffering to go on, any amount, is sadistic ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/105 "2013-03-24T18:31:37Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > It is not the god of the bible then… > [@lekatt](#): > > Definitely not. Last I read, Jesus is in the bible, so it is contradictory for you to report on his love… ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/106 "2013-03-24T19:20:29Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > There is absolutely no reason why, if one has the power, one shouldn’t eliminate suffering somehow, and do so immediately. Any thing that allows the amount of suffering to go on, any amount, is sadistic Do you apply this same standard to humanity? If so, almost all humans are sadists. If not, why don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/107 "2013-03-24T19:31:34Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > One immediately has to ask, at what cost? And where has he been all this time? No cost that I know of, and He’s been around forever as far as I know. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/108 "2013-03-24T19:33:17Z")
Have you shared the story of your NDE, lekatt? I’d love to read about it. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/109 "2013-03-24T19:34:20Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > So you DID see a doctor after your “heart attack” then? Of course, I went to a heart doctor for 18 months on a regular basis, didn’t need to go anymore because I was healed. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/110 "2013-03-24T19:42:02Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Do you apply this same standard to humanity? If so, almost all humans are sadists. If not, why don’t you? A very good point. We have free will to do as we please, if all humans treated each other with respect there would not be so much suffering. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/111 "2013-03-24T19:44:10Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > Have you shared the story of your NDE, lekatt? I’d love to read about it. My NDE is in my books and on my website. I am not allowed to post links to my material. My pen name is Ken Katin. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/112 "2013-03-24T19:45:35Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > This thread is not about religion. It is about God. God is a religious concept. You might as well say “this thread isn’t about food, it’s about hamburgers”. > [@lekatt](#): > > Would you believe in a God that judges no one, loves everyone, and keeps you safe at all times. That sounds like a family dog or an artificial intelligence for a defense system, not a god. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/113 "2013-03-24T20:35:34Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Do you apply this same standard to humanity? If so, almost all humans are sadists. If not, why don’t you? I think it’s possible to walk that tightrope. If god is immortal, and can just poof things into happening, that’s very different from a human needing to using some of their short lifespan to toil to make things better, with always uncertain outcomes. So the level of obligation is very different. Also note that this limits us to doing one thing at a time. If a human could wiggle their nose and every blind person would see then I would consider them morally obliged to do that. But in the real world, the closest a human can do is enter the field of optometry, and I do not consider every human to be obliged to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/114 "2013-03-24T20:59:00Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I think it’s possible to walk that tightrope. > If god is immortal, and can just poof things into happening, that’s very different from a human needing to using some of their short lifespan to toil to make things better, with always uncertain outcomes. > > So the level of obligation is very different. Seems to me that the level of obligation only matters if you accept that there’s a duty both God and man have to actively work to reduce suffering. And if God and man are so different that different moral obligations exist for each, does that not suggest they should not be held to the same, human-conceived, moral standards? What are man’s ethics to God? What are God’s ethics to man? > [@Mijin](#): > > Also note that this limits us to doing one thing at a time. If a human could wiggle their nose and every blind person would see then I would consider them morally obliged to do that. I wouldn’t, for what that’s worth. > [@Mijin](#): > > But in the real world, the closest a human can do is enter the field of optometry, and I do not consider every human to be obliged to do that. Are they obliged to reduce suffering in some way? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/115 "2013-03-24T21:03:55Z")
“God” is singular-“Mankind” is not. If all of Mankind were of a single mind with a single purpose it could accomplish wondrous things…but it isn’t, and it doesn’t, and it probably won’t. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/116 "2013-03-24T21:07:33Z")
What is the line between “failing an obligation” and sadism? I’d say a being who could cure all the blindness of everyone in the world by an eye blink and at no cost to itself, and refuses to do so is a sadist. And that goes double for a being that creates such imperfect species, has the power and knowledge to fix them, and won’t. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/117 "2013-03-24T21:08:46Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Seems to me that the level of obligation only matters if you accept that there’s a duty both God and man have to actively work to reduce suffering. Yes, and different people can have different moral views. The point is, there is nothing hypocritical or inconsistent about believing that a god is morally obliged to feed the hungry, say, yet a human is not obliged to spend all of their life doing that. Most people’s morality does include some notion of how much sacrifice is involved compared to the good that is done. If cutting off my hand is the only way I can reduce your suffering of a papercut, most people would not consider me obliged to do that. Conversely, if I can save someone’s life just by dialling 911, most people would consider me morally obliged to do so. In the case of a god, in most variants nothing god does requires any sacrifice on his part at all. And he has the power to do tremendous good. So the obligation is much stronger even than for the 911 dialler. FWIW I’m an atheist so this is all a “angels on the head of a pin” to me anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/118 "2013-03-24T21:15:43Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > What is the line between “failing an obligation” and sadism? I’d say a being who could cure all the blindness of everyone in the world by an eye blink and at no cost to itself, and refuses to do so is a sadist. I can easily imagine reasons for doing that don’t involve obtaining pleasure from the pain of others: indifference, a refusal to meddle in the lives of others, a refusal to expose supernatural power through such an act, or a belief that the struggle against misfortune is beneficial to humanity. > [@Boyo Jim](#): > > And that goes double for a being that creates such imperfect species, has the power and knowledge to fix them, and won’t. Sort of a side-issue; if a God did create humanity, is it morally responsible for human failings? I say no, whatever our origins, humans have free will. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/119 "2013-03-24T21:23:04Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Yes, and different people can have different moral views. Oh, absolutely. > [@Mijin](#): > > The point is, there is nothing hypocritical or inconsistent about believing that a god is morally obliged to feed the hungry, say, yet a human is not obliged to spend all of their life doing that. I didn’t mention spending all of their life, I meant obliged to do it at all. > [@Mijin](#): > > Most people’s morality does include some notion of how much sacrifice is involved compared to the good that is done. If cutting off my hand is the only way I can reduce your suffering of a papercut, most people would not consider me obliged to do that. > Conversely, if I can save someone’s life just by dialling 911, most people would consider me morally obliged to do so. > > In the case of a god, in most variants nothing god does requires any sacrifice on his part at all. And he has the power to do tremendous good. So the obligation is much stronger even than for the 911 dialler. Consequentialist ethics, my old nemesis. The scale at which God operates means that a sort of “rule zero” might apply to it, meaning that such power makes God responsible for the human race (or all of creation) as a whole, rather than individuals. Only God would be in a position to judge what’s good or bad for humanity (or all of creation). > [@Mijin](#): > > FWIW I’m an atheist so this is all a “angels on the head of a pin” to me anyway. Same here. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/120 "2013-03-24T22:00:17Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Sort of a side-issue; if a God did create humanity, is it morally responsible for human failings? I say no, whatever our origins, humans have free will. God is typically portrayed as omniscient & omnipotent, which means _every single flaw of humanity_ is his fault because he put them there knowingly and on purpose in the first place. Every misdeed, every error, every sickness, every bad thought was part of God’s plan _from the beginning_. Nothing in all the universe happens except that God intended it to happen. That’s a direct consequence of a creator having omnipotence and omniscience, “free will” or not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643.md?page=7)