# What kind of God would you believe in and follow **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643 "2013-03-22T15:12:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/121 "2013-03-24T22:32:44Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > God is typically portrayed as omniscient & omnipotent, which means _every single flaw of humanity_ is his fault because he put them there knowingly and on purpose in the first place. Every misdeed, every error, every sickness, every bad thought was part of God’s plan _from the beginning_. Nothing in all the universe happens except that God intended it to happen. That’s a direct consequence of a creator having omnipotence and omniscience, “free will” or not. Ok, assuming the omniscient, omnipotent, creator God… God could be blamed for evil _existing_, but not for humans choosing evil deeds. When Cain slays Abel, God may have made murder possible, but the choice _to_ murder is Cain’s. So, God’s moral culpability is minimal. By this same token, God’s status as creator does not mean it has any special claim to dictate what’s right and wrong; we humans have to muddle that out for ourselves, whether or not there’s a god. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/122 "2013-03-24T22:41:13Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > God is typically portrayed as omniscient & omnipotent, which means _every single flaw of humanity_ is his fault because he put them there knowingly and on purpose in the first place. Every misdeed, every error, every sickness, every bad thought was part of God’s plan _from the beginning_. Nothing in all the universe happens except that God intended it to happen. That’s a direct consequence of a creator having omnipotence and omniscience, “free will” or not. Blaming God for the faults of mankind may make you feel better. However if you are an atheist then whom will you blame. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/123 "2013-03-24T22:46:59Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Ok, assuming the omniscient, omnipotent, creator God… > > God could be blamed for evil _existing_, but not for humans choosing evil deeds. Wrong. Assuming an omnipotent & omniscient creator, humans do and think evil things because that creator deliberately preplanned every single one of them. Every choice they make, every thought any human ever has was decided by God before they ever existed. It’s all ultimately God’s puppet show to himself, a clockwork humanity in a clockwork universe performing completely predictable actions only because that’s exactly what was designed into them from the start. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/124 "2013-03-24T22:55:32Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Blaming God for the faults of mankind may make you feel better. However if you are an atheist then whom will you blame. Ourselves. Nature. Or no one; neither we nor nature is omnipotent and omniscient. I can’t blame the humanity of 10,000 years ago for not curing all diseases and creating a post-scarcity transhuman utopia because they simply didn’t have the power or knowledge to even seriously try, much less do so. _God_ on the other hand could do so by an effortless act of will, if he’s omniscient/omnipotent. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/125 "2013-03-24T22:57:09Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Of course, I went to a heart doctor for 18 months on a regular basis, didn’t need to go anymore because I was healed. So you only know you had a “heart attack” because of your NDE, correct? And you never went back to the doctor after that? Yes or no only, please. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/126 "2013-03-24T23:03:18Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Blaming God for the faults of mankind may make you feel better. However if you are an atheist then whom will you blame. No one, except our own ignorance about the roots of human behavior. Perhaps if we know enough we’ll be able to intervene better in deviant/dangerous behavior in the future. The fact that christians _don’t_ blame their god for the plight of humanity reflects a complete break with their logic in terms of their other beliefs about the nature of their god. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/127 "2013-03-24T23:46:05Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Wrong. Assuming an omnipotent & omniscient creator, humans do and think evil things because that creator deliberately preplanned every single one of them. Every choice they make, every thought any human ever has was decided by God before they ever existed. It’s all ultimately God’s puppet show to himself, a clockwork humanity in a clockwork universe performing completely predictable actions only because that’s exactly what was designed into them from the start. Not necessarily. An omnipotent God could choose to limit its own power, otherwise it is not all-powerful; the power to limit oneself is a power. Given that, God could waive its omnipotence in such a way as to be unable to coerce human will or ensure the following of a plan. In short, God could have rendered itself unable to control man. Assuming this, omniscience does not create a free-will problem. Though God might be able to foresee the outcome of all events, by not being bound by time and space, it does not follow that God is necessarily the cause of all events. An observer with perfect knowledge could predict events while being wholly disconnected from their cause and effects. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/128 "2013-03-25T00:45:55Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Not necessarily. An omnipotent God could choose to limit its own power, otherwise it is not all-powerful; the power to limit oneself is a power. Essentially “If this statement is true then this statement is false”. You can’t create a logical paradox and then try to draw conclusions from it. Either we have to say we cannot apply logic here, or the paradox is invalid for some reason (e.g. limiting himself is one thing god cannot do). > [@](#): > > Given that, God could waive its omnipotence in such a way as to be unable to coerce human will or ensure the following of a plan. In short, God could have rendered itself unable to control man. > > Assuming this, omniscience does not create a free-will problem. Though God might be able to foresee the outcome of all events, by not being bound by time and space, it does not follow that God is necessarily the cause of all events. An observer with perfect knowledge could predict events while being wholly disconnected from their cause and effects. The concept of free will is incoherent; it’s a “bolt from the blue” that nonetheless is supposed to be a reasoned, considered action. Some people are uncomfortable with the idea of the past and their neurology determining their choices\*, but it’s hard to see how a willful action could be otherwise. - I think it’s because they get confused and imagine their brain chemistry is in some sense _dictating_ their thoughts, and they are mere passengers. But brain chemistry and thoughts are two sides of the same coin. Your thoughts are “real” and your brain really does weigh up information to make decisions. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/129 "2013-03-25T00:59:15Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > So you only know you had a “heart attack” because of your NDE, correct? And you never went back to the doctor after that? Yes or no only, please. It was the heart attack that caused the NDE. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/130 "2013-03-25T01:19:31Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Essentially “If this statement is true then this statement is false”. > > You can’t create a logical paradox and then try to draw conclusions from it. Either we have to say we cannot apply logic here, or the paradox is invalid for some reason (e.g. limiting himself is one thing god cannot do). Absurd concepts like omnipotence lead to absurd conclusions; nature of the beast. Have to go with “cannot apply logic”, as “one thing god cannot do” contradicts omnipotence. > [@Mijin](#): > > The concept of free will is incoherent; it’s a “bolt from the blue” that nonetheless is supposed to be a reasoned, considered action. > Some people are uncomfortable with the idea of the past and their neurology determining their choices\*, but it’s hard to see how a willful action could be otherwise. > > - I think it’s because they get confused and imagine their brain chemistry is in some sense _dictating_ their thoughts, and they are mere passengers. But brain chemistry and thoughts are two sides of the same coin. Your thoughts are “real” and your brain really does weigh up information to make decisions. If you’re advocating compatibilism (which I think you are), I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/131 "2013-03-25T01:34:33Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Absurd concepts like omnipotence lead to absurd conclusions; nature of the beast. Have to go with “cannot apply logic”, as “one thing god cannot do” contradicts omnipotence. Well, the “cannot limit himself” proposition is one that people have found ways to (try to) justify. Basically, instead of saying god is omnipotent you say god is L-omnipotent, where L-omnipotent means he can only do things which are logically consistent. Yeah, it’s an ad hoc wriggle, but I think it’s more easy to defend than “God can do anything, therefore god can make it so he can’t do something”. > [@](#): > > If you’re advocating compatibilism (which I think you are), I agree. Pretty much. I waver between using this label on myself because some of the baggage that goes with it I don’t agree with, but broadly, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/132 "2013-03-25T01:40:14Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Well, the “cannot limit himself” proposition is one that people have found ways to (try to) justify. Basically, instead of saying god is omnipotent you say god is L-omnipotent, where L-omnipotent means he can only do things which are logically consistent. > > Yeah, it’s an ad hoc wriggle, but I think it’s more easy to defend than “God can do anything, therefore god can make it so he can’t do something”. In your view, then, could an L-omnipotent God create the universe and humanity, without also preselecting the choices all individual humans will make? > [@Mijin](#): > > Pretty much. I waver between using this label on myself because some of the baggage that goes with it I don’t agree with, but broadly, yes. Ok, I think we’re on the same page about what free will means; the question is whether an omnipotent or L-omnipotent God is consistent with it. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/133 "2013-03-25T03:06:58Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Would you believe in a God that judges no one, loves everyone, and keeps you safe at all times. Anyone who judges no one and loves everyone, god or otherwise, is evil. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/134 "2013-03-25T05:06:58Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > It was the heart attack that caused the NDE. Who diagnosed that you had a “heart attack” that night? A “heart attack” supposedly strong enough to cause you to have an NDE, yet not require any professional medical assistance? Who, _besides you_? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/135 "2013-03-25T10:04:20Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > In your view, then, could an L-omnipotent God create the universe and humanity, without also preselecting the choices all individual humans will make? No. It’s not that I’m saying that god is the puppetmaster, but ultimately, he picks a script for the universe and can have every word, every character exactly how he desires. He picked the universe with nazis and gang rape, and generally, suffering. Now obviously at this point we’re touching on the problem of evil. And many people have had a run at defences to this issue. Spoiler: they don’t work. Also, while it’s natural for us to see ourselves as in the “middle” morality-wise, with an equal and opposite choice of good and evil, really that perspective comes down to how we’re wired up, on average. If god had made us a more social as opposed to tribal species, then we would probably have far less ability or desire to wage war, for example. But there is no reason to suppose such a species would be less (or more) free than we are. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/136 "2013-03-25T10:42:19Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > No. > It’s not that I’m saying that god is the puppetmaster, but ultimately, he picks a script for the universe and can have every word, every character exactly how he desires. > > He picked the universe with nazis and gang rape, and generally, suffering. > > Now obviously at this point we’re touching on the problem of evil. And many people have had a run at defences to this issue. Spoiler: they don’t work. > Also, while it’s natural for us to see ourselves as in the “middle” morality-wise, with an equal and opposite choice of good and evil, really that perspective comes down to how we’re wired up, on average. > If god had made us a more social as opposed to tribal species, then we would probably have far less ability or desire to wage war, for example. But there is no reason to suppose such a species would be less (or more) free than we are. You are forgetting we have free will and make our own choices, some of them bad choices which lead to suffering. God knows we will learn and grow but how we do that is up to us. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/137 "2013-03-25T11:26:52Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > You are forgetting we have free will and make our own choices, some of them bad choices which lead to suffering. God knows we will learn and grow but how we do that is up to us. Not at all. What I’m saying is that we’re not blank slates. I am free to choose when I eat pizza. But, how desirable pizza is to me, and how often I can have pizza before I get sick of it, are things I cannot choose. Likewise with morality. How free we are to choose, and mankind’s predilections towards good or evil, are two separate things. God could have made us as free as we are now (or indeed _more_ free), but a better species. He chose not to. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/138 "2013-03-25T12:26:53Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > No. > It’s not that I’m saying that god is the puppetmaster, but ultimately, he picks a script for the universe and can have every word, every character exactly how he desires. > > He picked the universe with nazis and gang rape, and generally, suffering. > > Now obviously at this point we’re touching on the problem of evil. And many people have had a run at defences to this issue. Spoiler: they don’t work. Alright, I can understand this view, and it’s a sound one. To my mind, though, it can also be postulated that God’s perfect knowledge of all outcomes does not _determine_ those outcomes. So while yes, God created a universe in which Nazism and gang rape were _possible_, this doesn’t constitute a script, because God exerts no direct influence over human choices. That is, God knows what we will choose, but the choice is ours. That said, given that there is an element of biological determinism at work in human choices, if God is the designer of mankind, he has certainly shaped human choice in that way, as you allude to below. > [@Mijin](#): > > Also, while it’s natural for us to see ourselves as in the “middle” morality-wise, with an equal and opposite choice of good and evil, really that perspective comes down to how we’re wired up, on average. > If god had made us a more social as opposed to tribal species, then we would probably have far less ability or desire to wage war, for example. But there is no reason to suppose such a species would be less (or more) free than we are. I reject dualism in general, so you’re speaking my language here. You’re right, humans are not born as blank slates, we are “hardwired” for the way that we think, organize ourselves, and process information. God would thus be accountable for the biological underpinnings of human behavior, to the extent that any creator is responsible for his creation. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/139 "2013-03-25T12:53:43Z")
The “God” that is being stipulated rigged the game from the very start to go the way it wanted. In this scenario any and all decisions we make were pre-planned from the start to get the end results it desired. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/140 "2013-03-25T13:03:28Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > So now just describe the kind of God you could believe in. A real one. > [@](#): > > I believe you can do this. Yep, that’s what genetic engineering is all about. 🆒 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643.md?page=8)