# What kind of God would you believe in and follow **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643 "2013-03-22T15:12:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/141 "2013-03-25T13:16:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The “God” that is being stipulated rigged the game from the very start to go the way it wanted. In this scenario any and all decisions we make were pre-planned from the start to get the end results it desired. This depends on how God’s omniscience works. The idea of [anterograde omniscience](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omniscience#Omniscience_vs_free_will) holds that: > [@](#): > > The past is something that’s known, the future is something that is not known but may have an infinite series of possible branched time-lines and the present is the eliminator of possibilities. God knowing the future does not determine it as his knowledge is not a deterministic process emanating from the past but rather a knowledge that exists in the present and future actualized by human free action. The future exists as a web of possibilities whose outcome is known by the Omniscient Being but not predictively from the past, but rather post-dictively from the present and future. So, there’s that arguement. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/142 "2013-03-25T13:25:16Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > This depends on how God’s omniscience works. The idea of [anterograde omniscience](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omniscience#Omniscience_vs_free_will) holds that: > > So, there’s that arguement. It seems like yet another example of trying to avoid the paradoxes created by all those “omnis” by claiming that God is not _actually_ omniscient, while insisting on still using the _word_. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/143 "2013-03-25T13:48:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It seems like yet another example of trying to avoid the paradoxes created by all those “omnis” by claiming that God is not _actually_ omniscient, while insisting on still using the _word_. Pretty much, yeah. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/144 "2013-03-25T14:13:47Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It seems like yet another example of trying to avoid the paradoxes created by all those “omnis” by claiming that God is not _actually_ omniscient, while insisting on still using the _word_. Right-it totally avoids the “all-powerful” aspect which allows this deity to make the right decision to get the right outcome every single time. If I wired up my house for electricity myself I wouldn’t need the gift of prophecy to know that when I flip the switch the light will go on. Speaking of the gift of prophesy, a perfect god that gave this gift to mere mortals once in a while would certainly have a perfect version of it hemself, wouldn’t he? Thus, any world where this gift existed is a world where god knows what is going to happen. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/145 "2013-03-25T14:32:06Z")
We are assuming we have an idea of what god wants. We do not. We cannot even assume that god cares about the outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/146 "2013-03-25T15:23:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Right-it totally avoids the “all-powerful” aspect which allows this deity to make the right decision to get the right outcome every single time. If I wired up my house for electricity myself I wouldn’t need the gift of prophecy to know that when I flip the switch the light will go on. > Speaking of the gift of prophesy, a perfect god that gave this gift to mere mortals once in a while would certainly have a perfect version of it hemself, wouldn’t he? Thus, any world where this gift existed is a world where god knows what is going to happen. If we’re speaking of the Christian conception of God, the Scriptural basis for omnipotence is actually debatable. God is described as All-mighty; which can be taken as “supreme” rather than “omnipotent”. In other words, the Bible supports an interpretation of a very, very powerful God as well as an omnipotent one. Coupled with the logical problems presented by omnipotence as a concept, I have no trouble disregarding the conception of the omnipotent God, though others certainly do. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/147 "2013-03-25T15:26:41Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > If we’re speaking of the Christian conception of God, the Scriptural basis for omnipotence is actually debatable. God is described as All-mighty; which can be taken as “supreme” rather than “omnipotent”. In other words, the Bible supports an interpretation of a very, very powerful God as well as an omnipotent one. > > Coupled with the logical problems presented by omnipotence as a concept, I have no trouble disregarding the conception of the omnipotent God, though others certainly do. This is the reason I insist that a request about whether I believe in “God” be accompanied with a complete description of the abilities and attributes of said “God”, otherwise the question makes no sense. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/148 "2013-03-25T15:28:35Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > We are assuming we have an idea of what god wants. We do not. We cannot even assume that god cares about the outcome. Many people assume they know things not in evidence. This is one of them. They even assume they know the motives and thoughts of others. It is not wise to assume anything when it comes to people. I believe God has set us a tough learning curve but desires a positive outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/149 "2013-03-25T15:31:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This is the reason I insist that a request about whether I believe in “God” be accompanied with a complete description of the abilities and attributes of said “God”, otherwise the question makes no sense. That seems like a wise practice. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/150 "2013-03-25T15:33:29Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Many people assume they know things not in evidence. This is one of them. They even assume they know the motives and thoughts of others. It is not wise to assume anything when it comes to people. > > I believe God has set us a tough learning curve but desires a positive outcome. Do you get dizzy when you spin around that fast? In this thread you use the term “believe in”. Would you please tell us what you mean by that term? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/151 "2013-03-25T15:34:50Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > We are assuming we have an idea of what god wants. We do not. We cannot even assume that god cares about the outcome. I don’t think so. The OP is asking us to define our own god. The current discussion is about what omnipotence and omniscience entails (i.e. _if_ god has those properties, what can we conclude)? In neither situation is “Who are we to know the mind of god?” / “God works in mysterious ways” a relevant response. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/152 "2013-03-25T15:52:23Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Many people assume they know things not in evidence. Do tell. 😉 > [@lekatt](#): > > They even assume they know the motives and thoughts of others. It is not wise to assume anything when it comes to people. I believe we can make well founded assumptions about people based on their prior actions. > [@lekatt](#): > > I believe God has set us a tough learning curve but desires a positive outcome. Positive outcome for whom? Can you think of any examples where a positive outcome for god was in contrast with a positive outcome for humans? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/153 "2013-03-25T16:00:06Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I don’t think so. > > The OP is asking us to define our own god. The current discussion is about what omnipotence and omniscience entails (i.e. _if_ god has those properties, what can we conclude)? > > In neither situation is “Who are we to know the mind of god?” / “God works in mysterious ways” a relevant response. I can imagine a god that is not subject to the rules which govern the universe he presumably created - just because he created it doesn’t mean this is the only way to run things, does it?. I can imagine a god in possession of all the omni-qualities. Because we are limited by this universe and this reality, I don’t know how we can intelligently speculate on god’s motives. So what can we successfully conclude, afterall? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/154 "2013-03-25T16:25:17Z")
\*I want a new God One who won’t make me sick One who won’t make us die in wars Or have disciples that are pricks I want a new God One who won’t make us bow down One who’ll spank TV preachers And kick proselytizers out of town One that won’t make me nervous Wonderin’ what to do One that won’t insist that we kill off all them Jews Cause that vibe’s just bad news\* ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/155 "2013-03-25T16:36:56Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > \*I want a new God > One who won’t make me sick > One who won’t make us die in wars > Or have disciples that are pricks > \* Great, a new earworm for today. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/156 "2013-03-25T16:56:49Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Because we are limited by this universe and this reality, I don’t know how we can intelligently speculate on god’s motives. So what can we successfully conclude, afterall? All we can do is rationally reason things out. And, in this specific context, all we’re doing is assuming god is self-consistent. That ‘If god has property X, then he has property X’. If even that doesn’t work with god, then essentially the concept is undefined and no discussion is possible at all. No sentence including the word ‘god’ would make any sense, including “I believe god exists” or “God is omnipotent”. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/157 "2013-03-25T17:04:14Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Great, a new earworm for today. Don’t worry, I changed the music too. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/158 "2013-03-25T17:06:54Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > No sentence including the word ‘god’ would make any sense, including “I believe god exists” or “God is omnipotent”. I think this is where (we) atheists run into trouble; Trying to frame god inside some consistent set of parameters. Can you elaborate on the quoted above? I’m not sure I understand the reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/159 "2013-03-25T17:10:44Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > All we can do is rationally reason things out. > > And, in this specific context, all we’re doing is assuming god is self-consistent. That ‘If god has property X, then he has property X’. If even that doesn’t work with god, then essentially the concept is undefined and no discussion is possible at all. > > No sentence including the word ‘god’ would make any sense, including “I believe god exists” or “God is omnipotent”. That was my take as well, applying reason to God and the attributes thereof, to deduce the implications of those attributes. This, of course, assumes that God is subject to logic. Otherwise, as **Mijin** notes, discussion of God is effectively impossible. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/160 "2013-03-25T18:51:54Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Do you apply this same standard to humanity? If so, almost all humans are sadists. If not, why don’t you? Many humans are sadistic. And many others try but fail to stop suffering. If I can stop suffering within my grasp, I try to do so. Sometimes I don’t succeed, but I don’t have unlimited power. Some suffering doesn’t rise to the level of sadism and those may be judged on their own merits. A god that has the power to stop the suffering, and more importantly, to make everyone happy, has a duty to do so unless it is sadistic [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643.md?page=9)