# What kind of God would you believe in and follow **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643 "2013-03-22T15:12:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/161 "2013-03-25T19:01:54Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Do tell. 😉 > > I believe we can make well founded assumptions about people based on their prior actions. > > Positive outcome for whom? Can you think of any examples where a positive outcome for god was in contrast with a positive outcome for humans? Positive outcomes are the same, what is good for us is good for God. We are all connected. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/162 "2013-03-25T19:04:46Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Many humans are sadistic. And many others try but fail to stop suffering. If I can stop suffering within my grasp, I try to do so. Sometimes I don’t succeed, but I don’t have unlimited power. Some suffering doesn’t rise to the level of sadism and those may be judged on their own merits. A god that has the power to stop the suffering, and more importantly, to make everyone happy, has a duty to do so unless it is sadistic So the duty to work to reduce suffering, within the limits of one’s power, applies to man and God both? And God’s unlimited power means that he should reduce suffering to none? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/163 "2013-03-25T19:05:23Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Positive outcomes are the same, what is good for us is good for God. We are all connected. What is the topic of this thread? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/164 "2013-03-25T19:05:33Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Many humans are sadistic. And many others try but fail to stop suffering. If I can stop suffering within my grasp, I try to do so. Sometimes I don’t succeed, but I don’t have unlimited power. Some suffering doesn’t rise to the level of sadism and those may be judged on their own merits. A god that has the power to stop the suffering, and more importantly, to make everyone happy, has a duty to do so unless it is sadistic if you want God to correct the problems of this world then you must give up your free will to make your own choices because God will make them for you. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/165 "2013-03-25T19:07:16Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > if you want God to correct the problems of this world then you must give up your free will to make your own choices because God will make them for you. How do you know all this? Are you the exception to the “No man can know the mind of God” rule? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/166 "2013-03-25T19:07:20Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > if you want God to correct the problems of this world then you must give up your free will to make your own choices because God will make them for you. Not all the problems of the world are the result of human choices (disease, for one); God could solve those without removing free will. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/167 "2013-03-25T19:12:47Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Positive outcomes are the same, what is good for us is good for God. What about negative outcomes? Are you just going to ignore those for the sake of convenience? > [@lekatt](#): > > We are all connected. Yes, the internet is a wonderful thing. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/168 "2013-03-25T19:23:16Z")
In my opinion God should be thus: Loving and compassionate Does not interfere with our choices If we wish to harm ourselves or others it is permitted Helps or guides us to learn how to make the right choices Does not judge us or harm us in anyway No devils or hell or evil Provides a safe place for us to learn the right choices (earth) When our earth time is over provide a safe place for us to critique our earth lives Then learn from our mistakes and try again if necessary Like a good Father teaching us to be more like Him A perfect role model The making of wrong choices or mistakes causes suffering to those who do so This is the consequences of mistakes and one learns from those consequences eventually ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/169 "2013-03-25T19:27:19Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > In my opinion God should be thus: > > Loving and compassionate > Does not interfere with our choices > If we wish to harm ourselves or others it is permitted > Helps or guides us to learn how to make the right choices > Does not judge us or harm us in anyway > No devils or hell or evil > Provides a safe place for us to learn the right choices (earth) > When our earth time is over provide a safe place for us to critique our earth lives > Then learn from our mistakes and try again if necessary > Like a good Father teaching us to be more like Him > A perfect role model > The making of wrong choices or mistakes causes suffering to those who do so > This is the consequences of mistakes and one learns from those consequences > eventually Do you believe that this god you would prefer to exist _does_ exist? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/170 "2013-03-25T19:29:52Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Not all the problems of the world are the result of human choices (disease, for one); God could solve those without removing free will. Disease, weather, earthquakes are all part of the learning process. Science has done a very good job of curing diseases and working on the rest. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/171 "2013-03-25T19:31:49Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Disease, weather, earthquakes are all part of the learning process. Science has done a very good job of curing diseases and working on the rest. What lesson is learned when a child is raped and dies of AIDS? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/172 "2013-03-25T19:31:56Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > What about negative outcomes? Are you just going to ignore those for the sake of convenience? > > Yes, the internet is a wonderful thing. Positive or negative they effect us all, some more than others ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/173 "2013-03-25T19:34:13Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > In my opinion God should be thus: > > Loving and compassionate > … > The making of wrong choices or mistakes causes suffering to those who do so > This is the consequences of mistakes and one learns from those consequences > eventually So people who die in natural disasters or those who fall victim to wars not of their own doing are guilty of being in the wrong place at the wrong time? What about those struck with horrible diseases - what wrong choices did they make? Where’s the love and compassion? Is this the kind of god you believe in and follow? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/174 "2013-03-25T19:34:47Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Positive or negative they effect us all, some more than others I think he is talking about your connection of postive outcomes for us and your god. Does your god also share any trauma from _negative_ outcomes? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/175 "2013-03-25T19:36:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What lesson is learned when a child is raped and dies of AIDS? I just heard last week children can be cured of AIDS The more horrendous the events the more good people flock to correct it, It is a learning process. Ask yourself if you helped ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/176 "2013-03-25T19:39:48Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > So people who die in natural disasters or those who fall victim to wars not of their own doing are guilty of being in the wrong place at the wrong time? What about those struck with horrible diseases - what wrong choices did they make? > > Where’s the love and compassion? > > Is this the kind of god you believe in and follow? There is no such thing as death, only the loss of the body. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/177 "2013-03-25T19:43:57Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I just heard last week children can be cured of AIDS I’ve yet to hear about anyone cured of rape. > [@lekatt](#): > > The more horrendous the events the more good people flock to correct it, > It is a learning process. It is not a learning process. It is an act of human compassion. Because godly compassion is in such short supply. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/178 "2013-03-25T19:44:09Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I just heard last week children can be cured of AIDS. Cite, please…unless this was just another voice in your head. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/179 "2013-03-25T19:44:18Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I think this is where (we) atheists run into trouble; Trying to frame god inside some consistent set of parameters. > > Can you elaborate on the quoted above? I’m not sure I understand the reasoning. Basically, theists can’t have their cake and eat it. On the one hand they freely make statements about god: that he exists, that he’s loving, that he created the universe etc. They also believe we can logically conclude certain things e.g. that we should obey his commands because (among other reasons), it will lead to a better afterlife. Then, on the other hand, when someone points out that the properties they are ascribing to their god are inconsistent, or incoherent, or by inference suggest god doesn’t exist…suddenly god is beyond logic. Suddenly it’s a mark of our hubris that we should try to constrain god to “our” logic. Who says god can’t be P and ~P? But either we can use logic here or we cannot. We can’t just apply it when we like the answers, and ignore it when we don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643/180 "2013-03-25T19:46:07Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > In my opinion God should be thus: > > Loving and compassionate > Does not interfere with our choices > If we wish to harm ourselves or others it is permitted > Helps or guides us to learn how to make the right choices > Does not judge us or harm us in anyway > No devils or hell or evil > Provides a safe place for us to learn the right choices (earth) > When our earth time is over provide a safe place for us to critique our earth lives > Then learn from our mistakes and try again if necessary > Like a good Father teaching us to be more like Him > A perfect role model > The making of wrong choices or mistakes causes suffering to those who do so > This is the consequences of mistakes and one learns from those consequences > eventually I would hate to have to live in a world with this God. What you’re describing is being trapped in an artificial world designed to teach you some lesson that a supernatural being thinks you need to learn. The only way out is death, except you get tossed right back in in a new body, with no memories, to try it again. Each life has no meaning beyond attempts to grasp this grand lesson being dangled before us, which boils down to “BE LIKE I AM, FOR I CREATED YOU!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-god-would-you-believe-in-and-follow/653643.md?page=10)