# What kind of snakes are these? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 9, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-snakes-are-these/584822 "2011-06-09T03:40:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-snakes-are-these/584822/1 "2011-06-09T03:40:58Z")
Two days ago there was a snake coiled at the base of a tree by the gate into my yard. My dogs were barking, and I went to see what they were upset about and there was a snake, looking pretty calm. I called the dogs off and put them in the house, and told the snake he might want to find a new location. He didn’t seem to be a rattler, no thick tail, no arrowhead-shaped head. Tonight the dogs were barking again, and now there are two snakes, apparently mating on the side of the same tree. Can anyone tell me if I’m supposed to be afraid? My location is Middle Tennessee. Pics ahoy! [Lovely Couple](http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j127/StG61/Snakes4.jpg) [Snakes Mating](http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j127/StG61/SnakesMating.jpg) StG ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-snakes-are-these/584822/2 "2011-06-09T04:18:53Z")
I’m guessing corn snakes. The dark patches look like little saddles and, although it’s hard to make out, looks like there might be a faint pale outline around them. Compare to some corn snake morphs [here](http://www.google.com/search?um=1&hl=en&biw=1024&bih=591&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=corn+snake+morphs&oq=corn+snake+m&aq=0&aqi=g9&aql=&gs_sm=c&gs_upl=13474l16935l0l8l8l3l3l5l0l298l416l0.1.1). There are a lot of snakes with similar patterns, though, particularly juvenile [rat snakes](http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://aboutzoo.net/reptiles/en/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/BlackRatSnakeJuvenile001.jpg&imgrefurl=http://aboutzoo.net/reptiles/en/&usg=__M5qc-XPwzPIZDMEQ9XSB6sobtoE=&h=945&w=1260&sz=274&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=0Xz98sv9QWanFM:&tbnh=134&tbnw=179&ei=cUnwTbDUHs7dgQfUlajpAg&prev=/search%3Fq%3Drat%2Bsnake%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D591%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=574&vpy=290&dur=137&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=161&ty=213&page=1&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:13,s:0&biw=1024&bih=591). Mating implies adult, however. Notably, I’d say they are NOT copperheads. The patches on [copperheads](http://www.google.com/search?um=1&hl=en&biw=1024&bih=591&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=copperhead+snake&oq=copperhead&aq=1&aqi=g10&aql=&gs_sm=c&gs_upl=16289l16718l0l2l2l0l0l0l0l108l177l1.1) are a different shape, and often there seems to be a dot in the ale areas. Look at the corn snake in the bottom picture on [this page](http://www.bgsu.edu/departments/biology/facilities/herp/caresheetpages/corn.html). ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-snakes-are-these/584822/3 "2011-06-09T04:33:14Z")
**Sailboat** - That’s a possibility. [Here’s a good pic of a corn snake](http://www.herpetology.us/tnherps/eastern_wormsnake_carphophi/adult_from_cannon_co_tn.html) from the next county over. [Here’s a rat snake caught nearby.](http://www.herpetology.us/tnherps/gray_ratsnake_elaphe_spiloi/lake_co_tn.html#previous-photo) StG ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-snakes-are-these/584822/4 "2011-06-09T10:56:16Z")
Do you live near Reelfoot Lake? If so groovy-o! (It was formed during the new Madrid earthquake when the Mississippi “ran backward” in 1811-1812.) ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-snakes-are-these/584822/5 "2011-06-09T11:24:18Z")
**Ellen Cherry** - Reelfoot lake is nearby only in the “It’s in the same State” terms. Sorry to be misleading. StG ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-snakes-are-these/584822/6 "2011-06-09T12:13:51Z")
I agree with **Sailboat**. Those are corn snakes. This is the second recent thread involving snakes mating in trees. **Kayaker** saw some water snakes doing it. [Snake in a tree ID? - Factual Questions - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=611022) And in that thread, **Giles** posted a link to a pair he saw doing it. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-snakes-are-these/584822/7 "2011-06-09T13:05:51Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > I agree with **Sailboat**. Those are corn snakes. This is the second recent thread involving snakes mating in trees. **Kayaker** saw some water snakes doing it. [Snake in a tree ID? - Factual Questions - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=611022) > > And in that thread, **Giles** posted a link to a pair he saw doing it. Thanks for alerting me, **Crotalus**. Snake sex in trees does seem to be developing into a running theme! 😃 I concur, it/they do look like corn snakes to me. Sex in trees is far less surprising to me when observed in corn snakes than those water snakes \*\*Crotalus \*\*linked to. Pretty much all the \*Elaphe \*group (now mostly \*Pantherophis \*apparently - I just can’t keep up!) are excellent climbers. As is demonstrated in **StGermain** ’s picture of the rat snake on a tree trunk. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-snakes-are-these/584822/8 "2011-06-09T13:11:38Z")
Snakes. Why did it have to be snakes? ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-snakes-are-these/584822/9 "2011-06-09T14:02:06Z")
Corn snakes or rat snakes? StG ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-snakes-are-these/584822/10 "2011-06-09T15:24:34Z")
Corn snakes are a subset of rat snakes. As **CannyDan** alluded, all new World rat snakes used to be in the genus Elaphe. The group most commonly called rat snakes are (were) subspecies of the species Elaphe obsoleta. Black, gray, yellow, Texas and Everglades rat snakes are examples of these. Corn snakes were Elaphe guttata, and have been loosely referred to as rat snakes as well. One of the common names for the corn snake is red rat snake. Most of the snakes that old guys like Dan and me think of as Elaphe species have been renamed Pantherophis, primarily just to confuse old guys, I think. ETA: it appears that the adoption of Pantherophis has not been officially approved by International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature, so Dan and I can remain unconfused, at least on this narrow topic, for a while longer. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-snakes-are-these/584822/11 "2011-06-09T15:46:14Z")
Any chance in SDMB devoting a forum solely to snake tree sex?😃 When my daughter was 6, she had a pet corn snake. It was a very cool pet. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-snakes-are-these/584822/12 "2011-06-09T15:47:39Z")
Moving thread from IMHO to General Questions. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-snakes-are-these/584822/13 "2011-06-09T20:55:17Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > Most of the snakes that old guys like Dan and me think of as Elaphe species have been renamed Pantherophis, primarily just to confuse old guys, I think. > > ETA: it appears that the adoption of Pantherophis has not been officially approved by International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature, so Dan and I can remain unconfused, at least on this narrow topic, for a while longer. Phwew!! Good to know. I confess I didn’t check, just took the entry on Florida Museum of Natural History at face value. Now I see the asterisk. :smack: There are just so-o-o-o many things to be confused about these days! ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-snakes-are-these/584822/14 "2011-06-09T22:41:41Z")
Since te consensus in non-venomous, I’ll leave them be, to have their live sex show for the masses. 😉 I did warn them about the dogs, however. StG ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-snakes-are-these/584822/15 "2011-06-10T00:04:33Z")
> [@StGermain](#): > > Since te consensus in non-venomous, I’ll leave them be, to have their live sex show for the masses. 😉 I did warn them about the dogs, however. > > StG I am quite confident that these are not venomous. North American venomous snakes are pretty distinctively unlike those in your photo. And TN is not exactly the hub of exotic reptile import / export, so the chance of them being a pair of some unusual Asian viper (or whatever) is vanishingly small. Unlike, say, _here_, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-snakes-are-these/584822/16 "2011-06-10T00:19:25Z")
**CannyDan** - I’ve killed three rattlesnakes in my yard, and had one dog bit by one. A co-worker said they were copperheads, but I was quite sure they were non-venomous. With acres of farmland and 14 animals, I worry about them. Thanks for your help! StG ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-snakes-are-these/584822/17 "2011-06-10T01:18:21Z")
> [@StGermain](#): > > **CannyDan** - I’ve killed three rattlesnakes in my yard, and had one dog bit by one. A co-worker said they were copperheads, but I was quite sure they were non-venomous. With acres of farmland and 14 animals, I worry about them. > > Thanks for your help! > > StG Aw shucks, tweren’t nothin’. (_looks away, scuffs toe in dirt_) And besides, **Crotalus** got there first. I do a lot of relocations of venomous snakes here, and that is the preferred option. But I recognize that this is not always possible, and your safety and that of your animals takes precedence. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-snakes-are-these/584822/18 "2011-06-10T01:33:33Z")
Missed edit window - looks like **Sailboat** was actually first. Sorry, **Sail**! ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-snakes-are-these/584822/19 "2011-06-10T01:47:49Z")
That actually should’ve been a general **THANK YOU!** to all the Helpful Herpetologists! StG