# What kind of society.... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 4, 2011, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-society/591443 "2011-08-04T09:12:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-society/591443/81 "2011-08-05T18:08:15Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > If it helps, there is not “a” point. This isn’t prescriptive, I don’t have an agenda to sell. > > The responses are interesting though; used to be you’d primarily get the my-country-right-or-wrong types, but now things seem more fragmented, more entrenched, and much louder. > > None of you are mentioning equality of opportunity, social justice, social inclusion - the kind of language the rest of the developed world requires for issues like this. > > The USA truely seems a country apart now. OK, so you refuse to take a stand under the guise of _“well isn’t it obvious!?”_ See if you can at least answer this one question: To balance the inequity, should we release some of the black criminals or lock up more white ones? ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-society/591443/82 "2011-08-05T18:16:27Z")
> [@Bri2k](#): > > Say what you like about there being too many people behind bars. I think many of them truly belong there. I think we’d be better off using the death penalty in an expeditious manner and spending our resources on citizens that actually deserve it. > > Bri2k Problem is, the death penalty process is neither expeditious nor an efficient way to spend our resources. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-society/591443/83 "2011-08-05T18:19:15Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > Problem is, the death penalty process is neither expeditious nor an efficient way to spend our resources. Not the way it is now… ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-society/591443/84 "2011-08-05T18:25:57Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > Alkways a good question! > > Maybe understand why comparable first world societies imprison 10% of the US figure - or 1 in a 1000 - of the population, and what that means for both societies and the individuals. But as I said in my post, you’re really comparing apples and oranges here. The US is considerably larger and considerably more diverse than than any other first world country. Race, culture, and socioeconomics play a very different role here than they do in a country like the UK or Germany or whatever. This is why I’m saying it’s these factors that we need to address and culture isn’t the sort of thing a government can fix. One of the major differences that we can do is that other countries are starting to decriminalize certain drugs, particularly marijuana, and the US hasn’t done that. I think a few steps like that would certainly go a long way toward lessening our imprisoned population, lessening crime, and weakening gangs and organized crime, but I think it’s lagging behind largely because of cultural reasons right now. > [@](#): > > Maybe even baulk at the shamlessness the next time a US President “raises” the issue of human rights to a Chinese leader. Frankly, this is just silly. A father doesn’t need to make every single baseball game and always know the right words to say and never lose his temper before he can tell his neighbor that beating his son is wrong. Yes, the US has a way to go with human rights, but even the majority of our prisoners have it better than many of the Chinese. We certainly should be prancing around like the paragon of human rights, but we can certainly berate a country like China for some of the horribly attrocities they commit. > [@](#): > > Perhaps even consider how choices given to the poor help the USA maintain a ‘volunteer’ military. Yes, the poor and disadvantaged need more options, but a lot of them aren’t the sorts of things you can legislate. Gangs aren’t something you can legislate away. Breaking a cycle of broken families isn’t something you can legislate away. I think situations are improving, just very slowly, and it may take several generations more still before things finally level out. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-society/591443/85 "2011-08-05T20:19:30Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > If it helps, there is not “a” point. This isn’t prescriptive, I don’t have an agenda to sell. > > The responses are interesting though; used to be you’d primarily get the my-country-right-or-wrong types, but now things seem more fragmented, more entrenched, and much louder. I think the fragmentation you’re witnessing is that this board isn’t made up of my-country-right-or-wrong types. We seem entrenched because its been continually demanded that we don’t think. And you can’t be loud on a message board. > [@PrettyVacant](#): > > None of you are mentioning equality of opportunity, social justice, social inclusion - the kind of language the rest of the developed world requires for issues like this. Are you advocating incarceration Affirmative action? > [@PrettyVacant](#): > > The USA truely seems a country apart now. We are, strangely we seemed to be united on the fact that people breaking the law need to do the time prescribed before they committed the act. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-society/591443/86 "2011-08-05T20:25:11Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So what? You’re just vaguely outraged? > > That’s what the rest of us are saying - you aren’t making a point here. > > Take a position so there’s something to discuss. Or in the very least, strike a more definitive position so theres more for us to mock. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-society/591443/87 "2011-08-05T21:33:26Z")
Besides, even if you feel problems exist, prisons are not the problem. Prisons are the results of the problems. It’s like going to a cemetery and being shocked by how many people died before the age of thirty. And then taking a vow to devote your life to cemetery reform. If you want to fix the problems you see inside prisons, you need to step outside of the prisons and fix the problems that exist in the rest of the world. Do that and you’ll find your prison problems disappear. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-society/591443/88 "2011-08-06T02:07:00Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Besides, even if you feel problems exist, prisons are not the problem. Prisons are the results of the problems. > > It’s like going to a cemetery and being shocked by how many people died before the age of thirty. And then taking a vow to devote your life to cemetery reform. > > If you want to fix the problems you see inside prisons, you need to step outside of the prisons and fix the problems that exist in the rest of the world. Do that and you’ll find your prison problems disappear. Well, to be fair, **PV** seems to recognize that; it’s just that he seems to think if we all pronounce the mantra ‘opportunity, social justice, social inclusion’, things will magically get better. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-society/591443/89 "2011-08-06T02:42:17Z")
> [@Plumbkrazy](#): > > [Prisons, Jails, and People Arrested for Drugs | Drug Policy Facts](http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/node/63) > > "(2005 - incarcerated population for drug offenses) “The United States leads the world in the number of people incarcerated in federal and state correctional facilities. There are currently more than 2 million people in American prisons or jails. Approximately one-quarter of those people held in U.S. prisons or jails have been convicted of a drug offense. The United States incarcerates more people for drug offenses than any other country. With an estimated 6.8 million Americans struggling with drug abuse or dependence, the growth of the prison population continues to be driven largely by incarceration for drug offenses.” > > In my opinion, the War on Drugs is one of the most heinous ideas ever conceived by our government. But if 1/4 of the prisoners were released we’d still have more people in jail than any other country. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-society/591443/90 "2011-08-06T04:22:03Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > So we are all in agreement then: The OP is a load of horseshit. Nope. I vote for cowshit. Actually on edit, I’m thinking mouseshit. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-society/591443/91 "2011-08-06T04:33:21Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > But if 1/4 of the prisoners were released we’d still have more people in jail than any other country. More importantly, even if all drugs were legalised, we wouldn’t actually release 1/4 of all prisoners. It’s interesting the lengths that page goes to hide the facts. Nowhere does it actually tell us how many people are in jail solely because of drugs charges. It goes on at great lengths about the number of people convicted of drugs crimes, but makes no mention of how many of these were convicted of multiple crimes. So while 25% of prisoners have been sentenced in part for drug crimes, we have no idea how many would have been sentenced even if drugs were legal. We can get some sort of idea by looking at the following figures: “..of drug offenders in federal prisons… 91.4% are serving time for trafficking offenses” “…of persons sentenced for a drug offense in 2002… in 87% of cases no weapon was involved.” How many would have been sentenced to jail for weapons offences, tax fraud, selling controlled substances etc even if drugs were 100% legal is anybody’s guess. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-society/591443/92 "2011-08-06T04:41:17Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > More importantly, even if all drugs were legalised, we wouldn’t actually release 1/4 of all prisoners. > > It’s interesting the lengths that page goes to hide the facts. Nowhere does it actually tell us how many people are in jail solely because of drugs charges. It goes on at great lengths about the number of people convicted of drugs crimes, but makes no mention of how many of these were convicted of multiple crimes. > > So while 25% of prisoners have been sentenced in part for drug crimes, we have no idea how many would have been sentenced even if drugs were legal. > We can get some sort of idea by looking at the following figures: > “..of drug offenders in federal prisons… 91.4% are serving time for trafficking offenses” > > “…of persons sentenced for a drug offense in 2002… in 87% of cases no weapon was involved.” > > How many would have been sentenced to jail for weapons offences, tax fraud, selling controlled substances etc even if drugs were 100% legal is anybody’s guess. What’s even worse is that, without the drugs as a motivation, how many violent crimes wouldn’t have happened? ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-society/591443/93 "2011-08-06T04:43:52Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Aw, the OP came thiiiis close to calling us sheeple, but then choked. What a disapointment. > > I demand to be called sheeple, damnit! Fine! You’re a sheeple. Baaaahhh. Happy now? 😃 And just to edit my last post, since the edit window is closed, I think Batshit would have been better. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-society/591443/94 "2011-08-06T05:30:30Z")
Frog shit. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-society/591443/95 "2011-08-06T05:53:18Z")
As Blake pointed out, a lot of people are convicted and imprisoned for drug crimes. But very few people are imprisoned for just drug crimes. If you’re a drug addict who goes out and robs a convenience store, you might get convicted of armed robbery, criminal possession of a weapon, and some drug crimes. Even if they gave a general amnesty for all drug crimes, you’re still going to be in prison for armed robbery and criminal possession of a weapon. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-society/591443/96 "2011-08-06T05:54:03Z")
Here is a [summary of a study](http://www.november.org/razorwire/rzold/20/20021.html) allegedly prepared by the US Attorney General’s office in Feb. 1994 regarding mandatory sentencing for “low level drug offenders” and prison/court overcrowding. The numbers aren’t actually as staggering as some would claim, but tens of thousands of people considered to be “low level” drug offenders (by the strictest definition - not involved in any other crimes, no past criminal history, and no violence associated with their drug crime) are serving average sentences of 81 months in prison for these ‘low level’ crimes. If you remove the stipulation that the offender have absolutely no past criminal history and only stipulate that all their past crimes were also non-violent drug related offenses the number grows, and if you remove that stipulation and leave it at only ‘non-violent’ then the numbers do start to become significant when you have to pay for that many people sitting in prison cells for 5-7 years for basically nothing more than being addicts. > [@](#): > > Recent years have been marked by dramatic increases in the Federal prison population and in the number of Federal defendants sentenced for drug law violations. This report takes as its focus drug offenders with a minimal or no prior criminal history whose offense did not involve sophisticated criminal activity and whose offense behavior was not violent. We refer to this person as a “low-level” drug offender. This shorthand is adopted for purposes of convenience and not to suggest any policy conclusions or assessments about the seriousness or harm resulting from drug offenses. The purpose of the analysis is to gain a more solid foundation of knowledge to inform criminal justice policy decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-society/591443/97 "2011-08-06T06:53:41Z")
From the link provided byt Crazyhorse, people incrcerated for drugs who have no other criminal history amount to just 28% of drug offenders in prison. So rather than “decriminalising” 25% of prisoners, decriminalising drugs would reduce the number of criminals by just 8% at most. > [@Crazyhorse](#): > > If you remove the stipulation that the offender have absolutely no past criminal history and only stipulate that all their past crimes were also non-violent drug related offenses the number grows, and if you remove that stipulation and leave it at only ‘non-violent’ then the numbers do start to become significant when you have to pay for that many people sitting in prison cells for 5-7 years for basically nothing more than being addicts. Nothing more than being addicts? Your list includes burglars, frauds, armed robbers, extortionists and many, many other criminals who committed crimes with “no violence”. While you may think it’s that a burglar who breaks into a teenage girl’s bedroom in the middle of the night is guilty of " basically nothing more than being [an] addict", I can assure you, she won’t feel the same way. These people are not a minor problem in US society. These people cost society vast amounts. I’ve seen reputable analyses that indicate that through actual thefts, inflated insurance, expenditure on security, loss of flexibility due to fear and so forth these “non-violent” offenders chew up 10-30% of GDP. That is a staggering amount. And lest you think the losses are “only” monetary, consider that these wasted resources could otherwise have gone to improvements in health care, solving or reducing violent crime, improvements in safety and so forth. Then we factor in people who suffer health problems because they do not feel safe to exercise for fear of being mugged or having their car broken into while parked at the gym, or because gym memberships are expensive because of the costs of security to avoid these problems The idea that people who are commit “non-violent” crimes are being jailed for “basically nothing more than being addicts” is a gross misrepresentation. They are being jailed for committing serious crimes that are a massive economic, psychological and health lliability for society. These people are in no sense “just addicts”. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-society/591443/98 "2011-08-06T07:12:15Z")
I’ve gone on record as saying I legalize all drugs if the choice was up to me. But don’t think that would be some panacea solving all of society’s problems. Even if you made the legalization retroactive, you wouldn’t be releasing very many prisoners. As we’ve pointed out, most drug users were also convicted of other crimes. I ado agree that drug legalization would have an eventual effect of prison populations. If drugs were legalized many drug users would not need to commit other crimes to finance their drug use. That would eventually bring down prison populations. But like I said, no panacea. Drug legalization would, by any reasonable forecast, increase drug use - there’s got to be some people who are deterred from using drugs by their illegality. And increased drug use would bring a bunch of problems unrelated to crime statistics. So we legalize drugs and send fewer young men to prison. Instead we sent more young men to morgues. And I suppose people like the OP will ask what kind of society allows its young people to kill themselves in such great numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-society/591443/99 "2011-08-06T07:13:29Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > From the link provided byt Crazyhorse, people incrcerated for drugs who have no other criminal history amount to just 28% of drug offenders in prison. So rather than “decriminalising” 25% of prisoners, decriminalising drugs would reduce the number of criminals by just 8% at most. As I said the numbers aren’t as staggering as some would claim but they do make an impact on not only the overcrowded courts and prisons, but obviously on the lives of those prisoners too. > [@Blake](#): > > Nothing more than being addicts? Your list includes burglars, frauds, armed robbers, extortionists and many, many other criminals who committed crimes with “no violence”. > > While you may think it’s that a burglar who breaks into a teenage girl’s bedroom in the middle of the night is guilty of " basically nothing more than being [an] addict", I can assure you, she won’t feel the same way. I may not think that, nor did I ever imply or provide a cite that said or implied it. You have apparently misinterpreted the summary of the report that I cited. A burglar robbing someone in order to obtain drug money would not be included in these numbers they would be in prison for robbery not drug offenses. The report (prepared by the US Attorney General I might remind you, in an effort to demonstrate the rapid growth of the very prison population we are discussing) spells out that their definition of “low level drug offender” for the purposes of the study excludes other criminal activity, not just violent activity. The 12,727 prisoners defined by the strictest definition of “low level” in prison in 1994 were not, by definition, contributing to any of the costs to society that you mention. They were just addicts. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-society/591443/100 "2011-08-06T07:22:47Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’ve gone on record as saying I legalize all drugs if the choice was up to me. But don’t think that would be some panacea solving all of society’s problems. Even if you made the legalization retroactive, you wouldn’t be releasing very many prisoners. As we’ve pointed out, most drug users were also convicted of other crimes. > > I ado agree that drug legalization would have an eventual effect of prison populations. If drugs were legalized many drug users would not need to commit other crimes to finance their drug use. That would eventually bring down prison populations. > > But like I said, no panacea. Drug legalization would, by any reasonable forecast, increase drug use - there’s got to be some people who are deterred from using drugs by their illegality. And increased drug use would bring a bunch of problems unrelated to crime statistics. > > So we legalize drugs and send fewer young men to prison. Instead we sent more young men to morgues. And I suppose people like the OP will ask what kind of society allows its young people to kill themselves in such great numbers. There are more possibilities than the outright legalization of all controlled substances or total criminalization of them all. In an imaginary world where full drug legalization might happen, we could also imagine that drugs could only be purchased legally under medical supervision including counseling and rehab if desired, all paid for by the billions of dollars of additional tax revenues that could be imposed on the sellers of such drugs. At the same time as calculating whatever ramifications that had on our prison populations, we would have to reduce from the world’s count of violent crimes all the crimes committed by organized drug gangs, mafia, basic street level thugs, etc. as part of the current illegal distribution system which would be eliminated by such a bold move almost overnight. That is a lot of the “other” prisoners that do fall under the violent and dangerous category completely out of a job and source of income. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-society/591443.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-kind-of-society/591443.md?page=6)