well, i haven’t yet noticed the “thinking in” principle for my latin class yet, but i have most certainly noticed that “personality based on situation” thing. normally, i have at least three wildly different personalities throughout the day, though not in the “multiple personality schizophrenia” sense.
though, today that hasn’t really happened, because i went crazy and am wearing a green “T” over white pants, as opposed to my normal tan-on-tan T over khaki shorts. whoo! the whole wildness of it all has disrupted my normal state of casual insanity…
That’s quite all right, since I’m from neither England nor Scotland. I’m sure if you had come to Dublin you would have found our English satisfactory:).
You from Skåne? Maybe we can have a Skåne/DaneFest after all.
My first language is English, but I’ve lived in Spanish-speaking countries for many years. I didn’t start learning Spanish until high school, and am not even close to being bilingual, although I am reasonably fluent. If I am in the company of Spanish speakers, I will often find myself thinking in Spanish - and sometimes even when alone, depending on what I am thinking of. If I want to say something simple, I speak reflexively in Spanish without having to translate mentally from English. If I want to say something complex (for example, tell a story with multiple changes of tense), then I need to think it through in English and translate if I want to get it right.
My first language is Dutch, but I have lived in England for five years and have just moved to Ireland.
I do not translate my spoken Enlish from Dutch anymore. However, it would depend what I am thinking ABOUT. I studied philoshophy in England and I find it very hard to think about this in Dutch as I learned all the concepts in English. On the other hand, I wouldn’t think about my childhood in English as I did not speak the language back then.
The related question of dreams is the same. Which language I dream in depends what I am dreaming of. Even in a dream I would not speak English to my mother.
Another bilingual swede butting in. I would answer yes to both questions. Ex Tennis player Björn Borg once coined the expression bafatt, wich is a contraction of bara för att (“just because” in English). I’m sure there are other examples, but this one springs immediately to mind.
As for your second question. Young people with immigrant background have developed a patois called Rinkebysvenska (Rinkeby is a Stockholm suburb with a high percentage of immigrants), which is best described as a Swedish based creole. Similar languages have developed in other areas around the country. Unfortunately I haven’t been able to find anything about other than in Swedish.
Slight hijack: What language do you people use for counting?
I once heard that almost everyone counts in their first language, unless they make a conscious effort to do otherwise. I find that when I am reading a foreign-language book aloud, I end up saying the numbers in English. What about you all?
There’s a reason you say the numbers in English. The symbols give no clue about the sound, which is not the case for the rest of the text. Similarly if I see a text in French that contains the symbol “&”, the silent reading voice in my head says “and”, where the writer would have thought “et”.
I have often noticed in language-learning classes, when a student is reading aloud in the target language, they will come to a complete stop when they come to a number or a date, as they figure out how to say it, whereas they can just plough on through a string of any number of unfamiliar words.
As for counting, a lot of Irish people add and do simple arithmetic in Irish, because of the structure of their early schooling.
Many times, if I want to ask someone something(say, a teacher to explain me a problem), I think what Im going to say in Spanish, and translate it and say it in English. If I’m in a casual conversation, then I just think in English if the person speaks English only. If the person is one of those that know and understand Spanish but speak it with accent, then I speak to that person in Spanish. Of course, the person answers back in English.
I count in Spanish. I do most of my (verbal, terminology part of) math in Spanish, although I know the English terms. I suppose some of my classmates may wonder what I’m saying when I start counting and talking to myself during the laboratories.
I can also switch from English to Spanish in one sentence, usually because I forget the word I want to say and use the translation of it.
don, I have also heard what you said in your first post (“whatever one’s first language is as a child, no other language can ever be spoken as well as a native speaker can speak it.”) Is this true? Has any research been done about it?
I’d say that when I speak English I also count in English, and I remember a vacation in Tunisia when I went to the tobacconist a couple of times and politely ordered my cigarettes in French. The shopkeeper always gave me the price in French, but as I can’t think in numbers in that language I had to translate it into Swedish and every time he said it in English before I had had the time to figure out how much it was. It was very annoying.
When I spoke Spanish often I latched onto it very quickly. I liked the language much more than I like English, but now it has died from lack of use and I can barely remember any of it. When I spoke it often, however, I thought in Spanish and I also slipped Spanish words into my English sentences without noticing it.
My boss is Danish. His English is impeccable, the guy is really incredible. He says that he usually thinks in English around English speakers, but when he is in a very comfortable, friendly environment (good friends, for example) he not only starts thinking in Danish, but starts speaking it! Doesn’t realize it, though, unless someone points it out. If you listen to him speak to his wife you’ll find Danish-con-English. He says that sometimes phrasing something in English is more concise than the corresponding thought in Danish, and so why not? His wife never misses a beat.
Another coworker is Lithuanian, married to a Russian. She speaks English, Russian, and Lithuanian. he speaks English and Russian. When they communicate the languages fly… I can only hear English and some other language, but she tells me she tosses all three in there without even thinking about it.
From these two I gather some persons don’t really know what language they are thinking in unless they are hunting for a word. When I asked them they had to sort of contemplate the answer… I suspect all languages one knows conversationally just sort of smear together in their minds.
Per the OP. I am bi-lingual French/ English->smattering of Flemmish. My mother is Belgian and her family speaks both Flemmish and French. I was raised here in New England and I was raised in the house speaking both English and French and am equally proficient in both. To be honest it is not that helpful. Especially in my profession. It comes in handy at a nice French restaurant or when I go up to Montreal, and when I speak to my mother or fam in Belgium.
As for what language do I think in? English. But Oddly enough, Just called my mom whose first language is French. But her family has been in USA for many many many generations, they just never lost their mother language. She thinks in French first then translates to English. Yet she speaks like anyother American, no detectable diff. But when we are in Brussels her speah is indistinguishable from the natives!
I heard that from my italian teacher, but often I find myself counting in spanish. Most of the people in my high school spanish classes would read a year (ex. 1978) in english or just look at it and get confused so I can understand that numbers are one of the last things for someone to get accustomed to in a foreign language but my experience has been different.
I speak English and German.
When asked this question years ago, I came to the conclusion that a second language is nothing more than additional vocabulary, so I think in the language spoken at the moment. (Computer geeks might be able to relate to this bilingualism when they talk to other geeks and see the puzzled looks on the faces of non-geeks.)
If I don’t have to translate, I can easily carry on two conversations, one in English and one in German, with no problem.
Translating, however, is another ball of wax.
As far as counting - my first language, English, wins out every time. There seems to be a math part of the brain that simply doesn’t want to deal with any additional complications.
About 10 years ago, I met a man in Germany who owned a furniture store. He spoke English with a slight German accent, and had to search for the correct English word at times.
Here’s the kicker–he was from Iowa! :eek:
He had been stationed in (West) Germany as a young American G.I. in the 1950s. He married a German woman and decided to settle in Germany after being discharged from the U.S. Army. He apparently had no family in the U.S., and had not been back to the U.S. (at that point) in over twenty years. I’m fairly sure he was a German citizen.
To tie this to the OP, he also remarked that he now thought in German. (We had an extensive conversation over the course of a large furniture purchase.)
Has anyone ever heard of a situation like this, in which a person has started to lose their native language, and even pick up an accent?
I think if someone is in a place where the native language is not spoke, and the person is constantly interacting with others in another language, over time he or she will start to lose his/her native language and speak it with an accent.
My sister has lived in the United States for more than 10 years now, and her main interactions have been with non-Spanish speaking people. She already has an accent and has forgotten some vocabulary (but not much, she speaks in Spanish all the time when she is with someone who knows the language). My brother has spent the same amount of time, but does not have an accent yet…or at least not as strong as my sister’s. I will probably have an accent after I finish the university here(US).
You think in the language you are speaking. If you are thinking in another language and translating you are not even close to speaking the language half fluently.
