# What law is broken when you hire thugs to harass someone? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 18, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-law-is-broken-when-you-hire-thugs-to-harass-someone/691063 "2014-06-18T15:23:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-law-is-broken-when-you-hire-thugs-to-harass-someone/691063/1 "2014-06-18T15:23:34Z")
(first GD thread, please bare with me) What law is broken when you hire thugs specifically to harass a person? Lets say NJ (because the laws of other states I’m less familiar with). You are Joe Moneyroids and you’ve decided that, since you have more money then sense, you are going to target/stalk/harass someone. You have hired & regularly pay PIs to follow, stalk, threaten, and create situations where deaths can easily occur. The PIs are well aware of what they are being paid for and use electronic tracking and eavesdropping bugs to make surveillance easy and dangerous car chases are even easier. The PIs all keep in touch with each other on 2way handhelds/Nextels to keep you informed, even though you are not there. Q1: What laws are being broken and by whom? Q2: What would be the likely criminal penalties for being a PI hired to create these intentionally dangerous situations (if convicted) should, as a direct result, someone get hurt? Killed? Q3: What would be the likely criminal penalties (if convicted for hiring the PIs to do just that? Q4: if Joe Moneyroids was across state lines and hired these people to do this, would the penalties be more or less? Q5: If Joe Moneyroids employed this sort of tactic on more than one occasion or if a pattern could be discovered, demonstrated and/or proved, would RICO apply? Q6: If at some point the target is legitimately in fear of losing their life, at what point does self-defense attach? ---
**Author:** ![TheSeaOtter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ed655f/32.png) [@TheSeaOtter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheSeaOtter)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-law-is-broken-when-you-hire-thugs-to-harass-someone/691063/2 "2014-06-18T15:33:43Z")
All of these sound like factual questions (subject to questions of jurisdiction, obviously, but factual all the same). What is the actual topic of debate? ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-law-is-broken-when-you-hire-thugs-to-harass-someone/691063/3 "2014-06-18T15:53:00Z")
If this should be in GQ, please accept my apologies. (& could a Mod, when free, please move the thread? Thank you.) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-law-is-broken-when-you-hire-thugs-to-harass-someone/691063/4 "2014-06-18T16:06:08Z")
Is this heading toward asking if it’s okay to shoot cops and/or federal agents? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-law-is-broken-when-you-hire-thugs-to-harass-someone/691063/5 "2014-06-18T17:00:03Z")
Well, you’re guilty of conspiracy, maybe also racketeering? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-law-is-broken-when-you-hire-thugs-to-harass-someone/691063/6 "2014-06-18T17:09:53Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Well, you’re guilty of conspiracy, maybe also racketeering? I’d go with conspiracy. As long as whatever is done is legal I see no problem. Some things may be shitty to do but not actually illegal. As soon as it crosses into illegal acts then you (general “you”) can be in trouble. > [@](#): > > **Conspiracy** > > An agreement between two or more people to commit an illegal act, along with an intent to achieve the agreement’s goal. > > \ > > Conspiracy generally carries no penalty on its own. Instead, punishment derives from the illegal acts carried out by the conspiracy. Where one or more members of the conspiracy committed illegal acts to further the conspiracy’s goals, all members of the conspiracy may be held accountable for those acts. > > SOURCE: [conspiracy | Wex | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute](http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/conspiracy) ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-law-is-broken-when-you-hire-thugs-to-harass-someone/691063/7 "2014-06-18T17:41:31Z")
I recently heard an interview on the Sick and Wrong Podcast with the owner of a company that does “revenge” type services. [Their “about us” page.](http://get-passwords.myshopify.com/pages/about-us) Sounds hokey. > [@](#): > > Revenge against Ex-Wife/Girlfriend > $1,850.00 > > Is your ex making your life miserable, not paying child support, threatening, harassing, or just a general a-hole? > > We can make his life completely horrifying. > Please email us for details at [nefariousjobs@inbox.com](mailto:nefariousjobs@inbox.com) ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-law-is-broken-when-you-hire-thugs-to-harass-someone/691063/8 "2014-06-18T18:53:41Z")
It’s pretty hard to give meaningful answers to questions this broad, but I’ll give it a go. > [@Count\_Blucher](#): > > Q1: What laws are being broken and by whom? 1. Depends what they do; 2. by the people who are conspiring to do them, and the people who are doing them. The laws against homicide or assaulting people, as well as conspiracy to do those things, might be broken. Depends. New Jersey has criminal laws against harassment, stalking and terroristic threats as well. > [@](#): > > Q2: What would be the likely criminal penalties for being a PI hired to create these intentionally dangerous situations (if convicted) should, as a direct result, someone get hurt? Killed? You’d be a murderer or an attempted murderer, or you’d be guilty of some other form of homicide if you killed somebody. Otherwise, see above. Depends what you did. > [@](#): > > Q3: What would be the likely criminal penalties (if convicted for hiring the PIs to do just that? Prison. How much depends what you did. > [@](#): > > Q4: if Joe Moneyroids was across state lines and hired these people to do this, would the penalties be more or less? Probably not. > [@](#): > > Q5: If Joe Moneyroids employed this sort of tactic on more than one occasion or if a pattern could be discovered, demonstrated and/or proved, would RICO apply? If it was a pattern of murders, _could_, yes. Otherwise, probably not. But it depends what he did. > [@](#): > > Q6: If at some point the target is legitimately in fear of losing their life, at what point does self-defense attach? When the belief that harm to his or her person is imminent becomes reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-law-is-broken-when-you-hire-thugs-to-harass-someone/691063/9 "2014-06-18T19:30:52Z")
> [@Count\_Blucher](#): > > If this should be in GQ, please accept my apologies. (& could a Mod, when free, please move the thread? Thank you.) I’m actually going to send it over to IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-law-is-broken-when-you-hire-thugs-to-harass-someone/691063/10 "2014-06-18T19:56:02Z")
Rap Master Maurice’s [revenge raps](http://www.derekerdman.com/ilovemilkshakes/january2008/besides_i_love_you/rmm/rap_master_maurice.htm) are the way to go. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-law-is-broken-when-you-hire-thugs-to-harass-someone/691063/11 "2014-06-18T20:30:30Z")
> [@Count\_Blucher](#): > > Q4: if Joe Moneyroids was across state lines and hired these people to do this, would the penalties be more or less? The state law penalties wouldn’t change, but the ‘across state lines’ part might bring in the Feds. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-law-is-broken-when-you-hire-thugs-to-harass-someone/691063/12 "2014-06-19T20:14:30Z")
> [@Count\_Blucher](#): > > (first GD thread, please bare with me) > > What law is broken when you hire thugs specifically to harass a person? > Lets say NJ (because the laws of other states I’m less familiar with). Sooo…many…Jersey jokes… > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Well, you’re guilty of conspiracy, maybe also racketeering? Racketeering is the creation of a fraudulent business. I.e, a “protection racket”. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-law-is-broken-when-you-hire-thugs-to-harass-someone/691063/13 "2014-06-20T02:18:00Z")
> [@GrandWino](#): > > Rap Master Maurice’s [revenge raps](http://www.derekerdman.com/ilovemilkshakes/january2008/besides_i_love_you/rmm/rap_master_maurice.htm) are the way to go. On my Simpsons CD someone makes a Latin song about Burns after he screws them over - pretty catchy. _It may not surprise you but all of us despise you_ ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-law-is-broken-when-you-hire-thugs-to-harass-someone/691063/14 "2014-06-20T13:54:08Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Is this heading toward asking if it’s okay to shoot cops and/or federal agents? Nope, not at all. Assume that these are all “for hire” thugs. Goons that even bailbondsmen wouldn’t hire or wanna-bees too stupid to know where this leads them. > [@msmith537](#): > > Racketeering is the creation of a fraudulent business. I.e, a “protection racket”. Still, if an increase in income or indirect benefits that cause an increase in income derive from an illegal act, wouldn’t that make any business with this as a branch a criminal enterprise? > [@epbrown01](#): > > On my Simpsons CD someone makes a Latin song about Burns after he screws them over - pretty catchy. > > _It may not surprise you > but all of us despise you_ Heh, might apply to Moneyroids alright… but its off topic. Funny, but off topic. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-law-is-broken-when-you-hire-thugs-to-harass-someone/691063/15 "2014-06-20T18:23:51Z")
> [@Count\_Blucher](#): > > Still, if an increase in income or indirect benefits that cause an increase in income derive from an illegal act, wouldn’t that make any business with this as a branch a criminal enterprise? The RICO act considers “racketeering activities” to include “violation of state statutes against gambling, murder, kidnapping, extortion, arson, robbery, bribery, dealing in obscene matter, or dealing in a controlled substance or listed chemical”. So what you described sounds like “extortion” if you are having goons threaten people for financial gain.