What leverage does the US Govt have over Israel, how quick to apply/see results?

[DanBlather]

@Themenin

By and large it isn’t the ‘murderous thugs’ that we treat like victims - that consideration is generally saved for the victims - you know, women, children, bystanders, these guys - Most of the Palestinians killed in Israeli strikes have been militants, but 11 civilians are reported to have been killed.

So Palestinian militants have their offices and shoot rockets from civilian areas. What is the right response:

a) Bomb the locations and risk civilian casualties,
b) Invade Lebanon so that you can try and destroy the bases and hopefully have less civilian casualties,
c) Do nothing and allow your own civilians to continue to be killed because you are afraid that world opinion will be against you.

Not many good choices there. To me, the fact that civilians are being killed is not Israel’s fault; it’s the cowards that hide among the civilians and the enablers and apologizers worldwide that support their cause.

[ralph124c]

Hypothetical situation here: israeli intelligence has learned that Iran has 5 nuclear warhead-equipped SHAHAB missiles fueled and pointed at tel aviv. The Israelis have contacted their submarines (in the Persian Gulf), and positioned them to launch missiles at the Iranian launch pads. What do the Israelis do?

1. Inform Washington?
   2)launch missiles, then inform Washington?
2. launch missles, after Iranian launch pads destroyed, blame it on Iranian accident?
3. say nothing at all?

[E-Sabbath]

5. Mossad units are completely uninvolved in a series of unfortunate events that leave many Iranians dead, due to faulty missile maintenance.

[Honesty]

@Ravenman

To part one of the question, Israel is the largest recipient of US foreign aid: approximately $2.6 billion per year, the vast majority of which is Foreign Military Financing assistance.

Wow

[Lemur866]

@Honesty

Wow

Wow?

Honesty, let me ask you a question. I mean, a couple of questions. What president first started giving aid to Israel? Under what circumstances did this happen? What other countries were involved? What year did this begin? What prize did the various people who worked out this deal recieve? What product made the originator of this prize a wealthy man?

[Sal_Ammoniac]

The short answer to the OP is that the U.S. could have enormous leverage over Israel, if it cared to use it. For example, the situation in the OT is a cancer that the U.S. could have ended years ago, just by leaning on Israel. It wouldn’t have to lean very hard, either, because as Shagnasty points out, when it comes to Israel’s friends in the world, we’re basically it.

The Israelis are in a tenuous enough position as it is that they could ill afford to lose the support of the U.S.

[ralph124c]

Israel was given substantial economic aid from the beginning (1948). President truman signed off on various aid packages. No substantial military aid was given until 1964, however. Before that point, the French were the primary suppliers of military gear (Mirage fighter planes). Since 1967, US economic aid to Israel has increased substantially, with much of it "hidden’ (in the form of grants, loand, etc.). We even paid for the construction of a religious school in Israel (take that, ACLU!).
In return the Israelis have provided us with intelligence, captured soviet weapons, and lsitening posts. has it been worth it? Pro and con-some say we have emboldened the reactionary wing of Israeli politics, to the point where peace with the Palestinians is impossible.

[toadspittle]

@ralph124c

I
In return the Israelis have provided us with intelligence, captured soviet weapons, and lsitening posts.

They’ve also apparently sold our military secrets to the Soviets and the Chinese when it suited their interests. Kind of a bummer.

[Puzzler]

@toadspittle

They’ve also apparently sold our military secrets to the Soviets and the Chinese when it suited their interests. Kind of a bummer.

cite?

[Aquila_Be]

@Honesty

Wow

The answer is not as simple as that. Both Egypt and Israel each received a substantial boost in aid as a reward for signing the Camp David accords in 1978 as pushed by then President Carter.

So, in effect, the USA has agreed to pay the Danegeld to try to guarantee a lasting peace between Egypt and Israel.

Jordan also receives a much smaller amount of US aid, a mere bagatelle, chump change, call it what you will, about US $200M, for agreeing to behave.

LINK

US approves aid to Israel, Egypt
US provides yearly foreign aid to democratic countries - Israel, Egypt get biggest aid package since signing Camp David peace treaty. Egypt doesn’t escape criticism about Mubarak’s regime
Yitzhak Benhorin

WASHINGTON - The United States Congress budget committee has approved the US foreign aid budget for 2007 of USD 21.3 billion. The budget includes aid for Israel (USD 2.4 billion) and Egypt (USD 1.7 billion).

Both countries received the highest financial aid from the US since the signing of the peace treaty between the two countries at Camp David.

The move is the first of several steps scheduled to be voted on foreign aid budget at the Senate budget committee and at the plenum of both houses.

[toadspittle]

@Puzzler

cite?

Jonathan Pollard

Exactly what information he gave to Israel has still not been officially revealed. According to Pollard, he gave only information regarding Iraq’s missile threats to Israel.[4] Press reports cited a secret 46-page memorandum, which neither Jonathan Pollard nor his attorneys have been allowed to view, provided to the judge by Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger, which described Pollard’s spying as including, among other things, obtaining and copying the latest version of Radio-Signal Notations, a 10-volume manual detailing America’s global electronic surveillance network[5][6]

According to Eric Margolis in the Toronto Sun, Pollard provided Israel with the names of American agents in the Soviet Union. Margolis also alleges that the names were later traded to the Soviet Union by Israel and a number of key CIA agents were executed as a result [7]. Seymour Hersh in The New Yorker claims that “a number of officials strongly suspect that the Israelis repackaged much of Pollard’s material and provided it to the Soviet Union in exchange for continued Soviet permission for Jews to emigrate to Israel” and that “a significant percentage of Pollard’s documents, including some that described the techniques the American Navy used to track Soviet submarines around the world, was of practical importance only to the Soviet Union.” [8]

http://www.ericmargolis.com/archives/2000/04/strange_bedfell.php

William Cohen, the US Secretary of Defense, recently unleashed an unprecedented public blast at Israel for selling advanced military technology to China that could threaten American forces in the event of a clash with China over Taiwan.

Cohen demanded Israel cancel the US $1-2 billion sale of 3-5 AWACS airborne radar aircraft to China. Israel refused, though it may only sell China one of the Russian aircraft equipped with an Israeli ‘Phalcon’ advanced radar/electronic warfare system, developed from the US ‘Hawkeye’ AWACS system, at least until the heat subsides.

Former CIA Director James Woolsey testified Israel has covertly sold ‘several billions’ of dollars worth of top-secret US technology to Israel since 1983. The Inspector General of the US State Department found, in a 1992 report, a ‘systematic and growing pattern’ of Israel selling American military technology in direct violation of US law. That report concluded Israel was supplying arms based on restricted American technology to China, Chile, Ethiopia, and South Africa, all of whom then under US arms embargo.

The Pentagon has claimed since the mid-1980’s that Israel simply copies or reverse engineers secret US defense technology and then exports it - even on occasion, its is whispered, to Russia. Until now, Israel’s influential friends on Capital Hill managed to downplay or cover up these serious charges.

…

Pentagon sources charge Israel ‘backdoored’ US technology to China for the Patriot AA missile, other surface-to-air missiles; the PL-8 air-to-air missiles; C-802 anti-ship missiles; advanced composite tank armor and tank guns; aircraft avionics and ground radar systems; and the J-10 fighter, which is based on secret US technology used in Israel’s cancelled ‘Lavi’ fighter. Israel denies these charges. A Pentagon investigation of the Patriot sale, cleared Israel. Critics charged it did so under intense political pressure from Israel’s supporters.

Israel insists its high-tech arms exports are all 100% of Israeli origin. But American defense claim the Israelis often only make minor modifications to basic US-supplied technology and weapons, then sell them clandestinely. Israeli intelligence agents are known to have targeted specific advanced US defense technology.

…

American defense and state department officials are furious at Israel for so flagrantly violating the US embargo of high-tech arms to China, particularly as tensions between Washington and Beijing rise. There have even been angry demands in Congress for the value of the Israeli AWACS aircraft sold to China to be deducted from the $3-5 billion in aid Israel receives annually from the US. Fears are being expressed that US technology for Israel’s new ‘Arrow’ anti-missile system, developed with nearly $1 billion in US aid, may also be sold to China.

Israelis claim their weapons sales to China motivate Beijing to keep a leash on its ally, North Korea, which, says Israelis, ships missiles to Iran and the Arabs. Russia remains China’s main arms supplier. Sales by Israel keep Russia and China apart, say Israeli partisans.

I left in the justifications for these actions. They aren’t ignoble or malicious (i.e., trying to ensure that more Jews are allowed to emigrate from the USSR, or trying to motivate China to restrain N.Korea from arming Israel’s enemies), but the result is, nonetheless, that US military technology and secrets wind up in our adversaries’ hands as a result of the actions of one of our supposed allies. Kind of lame of Israel, if you ask me.

[Malthus]

Toadspittle, there may be something to those allegations, but your sole citation appears to be Eric Margolis, who writes for the Toronto Sun - which is a trashy tabloid from my hometown. How come some small time jounalist writing for a tabloid in Toronto, Canada is the sole authority on ‘secret’ transactions involving Israel and the Soviet Union?

I looked up this fellow, it seems he is occasionally given to making bizzare conspiracy rants based on rumours he’s heard somewhere - such as this embarrasing example:

http://www.ericmargolis.com/archives/1998/11/does_israel_hav.php

Methinks a bit of skepticism is in order.

[toadspittle]

@Malthus

Toadspittle, there may be something to those allegations, but your sole citation appears to be Eric Margolis, who writes for the Toronto Sun - which is a trashy tabloid from my hometown. How come some small time jounalist writing for a tabloid in Toronto, Canada is the sole authority on ‘secret’ transactions involving Israel and the Soviet Union?

I looked up this fellow, it seems he is occasionally given to making bizzare conspiracy rants based on rumours he’s heard somewhere - such as this embarrasing example:

http://www.ericmargolis.com/archives/1998/11/does_israel_hav.php

Methinks a bit of skepticism is in order.

Be that as it may, you still have:

Seymour Hersh in The New Yorker claims that “a number of officials strongly suspect that the Israelis repackaged much of Pollard’s material and provided it to the Soviet Union in exchange for continued Soviet permission for Jews to emigrate to Israel” and that “a significant percentage of Pollard’s documents, including some that described the techniques the American Navy used to track Soviet submarines around the world, was of practical importance only to the Soviet Union.” [8]

Sy Hersh is about as well-respected on these sorts of intelligence matters as you get. Plus:

http://telaviv.usembassy.gov/publish/press/visits/april00/030400.html

QUESTION: Mr. Secretary, should Israel cancel the sale of AWACs to China? And Mr. Prime Minister, why would Israel sell to China a capability that would threaten U.S. interests?

SECRETARY COHEN: I have indicated before that the United States does not support the sale of this type of technology to China because of the potential of changing the balance in that region, with the tensions running high as they are between China and Taiwan. We see this as being counterproductive. So I have expressed that to the Prime Minister. We will continue to discuss this matter in the future.

or this from the NYTimes (reprinted on this web site):

home1 - Canada Tibet

Israel Sells China Arms, C.I.A. Says
Forwarded by: Lori Cayton
By Michael R. Gordon

WASHINGTON, Oct. 12, New York Times – Israel has sold advanced
military technology to China for more than a decade and is moving to
expand its cooperation with Beijing, says R. James Woolsey, the
Director of Central Intelligence.

…

The C.I.A. says China has been acquiring advanced military tech-
nology from Israel for more than a decade on programs for jet
fighters, air-to-air missiles and tanks. The agency said the sale of
Israeli military technology to China “may be several billion dollars.”

Despite the previous reports, the bluntness of the C.I.A. assess-
ment surprised Congressional specialists and appears to reflect a
growing concern among American intelligence experts that China is
seeking to use Israel to obtain the sort of advanced military technology
that the United States and other Western nations have refused to
sell to Beijing.

China’s acquisition of military technology – and re-export to
Pakistan, Iran and other countries – is a major challenge to Western
efforts to stem the spread of dangerous weapons. The intelligence
agency reports that despite such worries in the West, Israel has
continued to share military technology with the Chinese.

…
“Beijing probably hopes to tap Israeli expertise for cooperative
development of military technologies, such as advanced tank power
plants and airborne radar systems, that the Chinese would have
difficulty producing on their own,” the agency said.

The agency’s assessment is likely to provoke calls by members of
Congress for greater scrutiny of the sale of American military
technology to Israel. While there is strong support in the Congress
for providing Israel with the money and technology to keep its armed
forces strong, there has long been worry that Israel might resell
some of the technology to other nations.

Rugh Yaron, a spokeswoman at the Israeli Embassy, said today that
Israel had not transferred American military technology to China.

“Israel adheres to all of its commitments to the United States with
regard to its relationship with China,” she said.

An Israeli diplomat, who spoke on condition of anonymity, noted that
the four-paragraph C.I.A. statement to the committee did not say
the Israelis had been re-exporting American technology.

Israel maintains that it has not re-sold any US technology here, but my guess is that this is all just a matter of degree (i.e., Israel reverse-engineering US technology and then selling the new Israeli-designed tech). Again, not vicious treachery, but kind of sucky.

[Jackmannii]

@Ravenman

To part one of the question, Israel is the largest recipient of US foreign aid: approximately $2.6 billion per year, the vast majority of which is Foreign Military Financing assistance.

@Honesty

Wow

For a little perspective - Arab nations in the Middle East receive substantially more in U.S. foreign aid than Israel.

For example, just one nation - Egypt - has gotten over 50 billion dollars in U.S. foreign aid since 1979, including 1.3 billion a year in military assistance.

Cite.

[Malthus]

@toadspittle

Be that as it may, you still have:

Sy Hersh is about as well-respected on these sorts of intelligence matters as you get. Plus:

http://telaviv.usembassy.gov/publish/press/visits/april00/030400.html
or this from the NYTimes (reprinted on this web site):

home1 - Canada Tibet

Israel maintains that it has not re-sold any US technology here, but my guess is that this is all just a matter of degree (i.e., Israel reverse-engineering US technology and then selling the new Israeli-designed tech). Again, not vicious treachery, but kind of sucky.

Seems that the Sy Hersh stuff is particularly weak - he’s heard that ‘a number of officials’ suspect that … . That’s not fact, that’s rumours and speculation. That a respected reporter is repeating rumours and speculation doesn’t transform it into fact.

The “Israel sells China stuff” is also not very shocking - allegedly, even the CIA isn’t actually claiming they are selling US tech, but rather that they helped Israel with its tech, and this allows China, by buying Israeli tech, to get a leg up.

Whether Israel should be refraining from selling China its tech is of course a live issue - there may be good reasons why, as an ally, it should not do so; but if Israel was to develop some new military tech and share it with the US (which it does from time to time), should Israel have a veto on future US military sales as a result, because such sales may reveal the influence of the Israeli tech?

They are seperate countries and their interests are not always identical. Each lobbies hard to influence the other - Israel gets upset when the US sells stuff to Saudi Arabia; the US gets upset when Israel sells stuff to China.

[Sal_Ammoniac]

@Jackmannii

For a little perspective - Arab nations in the Middle East receive substantially more in U.S. foreign aid than Israel.

For example, just one nation - Egypt - has gotten over 50 billion dollars in U.S. foreign aid since 1979, including 1.3 billion a year in military assistance.

And for a little further perspective, consider that, on a per capita basis, Israel gets over 15 times what Egypt, the next-largest recipient, gets. Also consider that Israel is one of the richer countries in the world, with a per capita GDP of around $20,000, while Egypt hovers around $1,500. And I wonder: does any other country on earth give Israel so much as a penny in aid?

There are no two ways about it: we’re vastly more generous to Israel than we are to anybody else. And given that, we should have considerable leverage. If only we had the guts to exert it.

[Jackmannii]

@Sal Ammoniac

And for a little further perspective, consider that, on a per capita basis, Israel gets over 15 times what Egypt, the next-largest recipient, gets.

And on a per capita basis Israelis have far more people trying to kill them.

But consider: a number of Arab nations in the Middle East (of which Egypt is only one example) get major U.S. foreign aid. Other who don’t get big aid infusions (i.e. Saudi Arabia) obtain valuable military hardware and other protection from us. None of these countries will automatically bend to our will as a result.

One might also rephrase the OP to ask what leverage the EU has over the Palestinians, given the large amounts of aid sent their way? Reductions aimed at getting Hamas to curb its violent program haven’t had a whole lot of effect.

[11811]

@Sam Stone

The OP’s question implies that there is something that Israel should be doing that it’s not doing.

What would that be?

Sorry, I’ve been away from this thread. I was thinking mostly in the abstract, although I find myself unable to side strongly with Israel in any of their recent actions against Palestine, especially their permitting settlers or not strongly prohibiting settlers in areas ofthe West Bank.

[Puzzler]

@11811

Sorry, I’ve been away from this thread. I was thinking mostly in the abstract, although I find myself unable to side strongly with Israel in any of their recent actions against Palestine, especially their permitting settlers or not strongly prohibiting settlers in areas ofthe West Bank.

Any of their actions? Including the current ones aimed to stop (or at least reduce) the continoues shelling of Israel with Kassam rockets?

[ralph124c]

Israel has indicated many times, that they belive IRAN to be their biggest threat. So, have they made any plans to attack Iran? If 9as we are told) the Iranians are busily making nuclear warheads, the israelis should have made serious plans to deal with the situation.
Or, does israel think that the US can be maneuvered into war with Iran? :dubious: