# What Liberatian Amendment would you like to see in the Constitution? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2002, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-liberatian-amendment-would-you-like-to-see-in-the-constitution/120647 "2002-07-24T23:06:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2002, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-liberatian-amendment-would-you-like-to-see-in-the-constitution/120647/61 "2002-07-31T22:08:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gaudere \* > [Moderator Hat ON] > > The Ryan, unless there is a legitimate debate purpose, I think disparaging comments about other poster’s genitalia belong in the BBQ pit. So that is definitely an issue for another thread, and most likely another forum. > > [Moderator Hat OFF] \*\* I didn’t realize that curiosisty was a form of disparagement. I apologize for any offense that was taken at my comment. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-liberatian-amendment-would-you-like-to-see-in-the-constitution/120647/62 "2002-08-01T01:04:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KellyM \* > \*\ ***SenorBeef** , under current law all Senate votes are a matter of public record. \*\* Under his proposal, they wouldn’t be - so I was wondering if they’d have to report back to the state legislatures. ---
**Author:** ![Qwertyasdfg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/ecc23a/32.png) [@Qwertyasdfg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qwertyasdfg)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-liberatian-amendment-would-you-like-to-see-in-the-constitution/120647/63 "2002-08-01T02:24:03Z")
I cant quite think of the right “Constitution jargon” to phrase this in, but basically: Computers, and the information stored within them, are the property of their owners. No non-governmental party may view this information, by any means, without the owners personal consent, for each individual viewing. Similarly, the government (at _every_ level) can only access this information, by any means, with consent, or if it obtains a separate search warrant. Once again, I know this needs some work in the wording department, but basically its purpose is to forbid spying on people’s computers, such as “Spyware,” and the recently proposed bill to allow the RIAA to spy on Peer-to-Peer networks. Also, hopefully this would prevent the unjustified monitoring of the Internet, and peoples’ computers by the government. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-liberatian-amendment-would-you-like-to-see-in-the-constitution/120647/64 "2002-08-01T03:54:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Qwertyasdfg \* > **basically its purpose is to forbid spying on people’s computers, such as "Spyware,"** Most spyware is installed with the consent of the user. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-liberatian-amendment-would-you-like-to-see-in-the-constitution/120647/65 "2002-08-01T03:59:58Z")
**SenorBeef** : I missed that somehow. I think **any** restriction of the right of the people to know what their representatives vote, whether or not directly elected, is anti-democratic and, quite honestly, anti-Libertarian. It was my understanding that most Libertarians favor transparency in government. **Paul in Saudi** ’s proposal discourages transparency in government, which is generally a statist (antidemocratic) position. I find it amusing that people are offering antidemocratic solutions to the problem that, in their eyes, the people do not have enough power over government. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Qwertyasdfg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/ecc23a/32.png) [@Qwertyasdfg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qwertyasdfg)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-liberatian-amendment-would-you-like-to-see-in-the-constitution/120647/66 "2002-08-01T04:18:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KellyM \* > \*\*Most spyware is installed with the consent of the user. \*\* You’re probably right (a cite wouldn’t be bad though.) But I’ve had several instances where I had to uninstall spyware that I had specifically declined to install, or had not been asked permission to install. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-liberatian-amendment-would-you-like-to-see-in-the-constitution/120647/67 "2002-08-01T11:23:28Z")
Well, the idea is each State would send two folks they could trust to the Senate. Since nobody could tell who voted for what these guys could not campagin in the conventional sense. Niether could they be bought. The Senate is supposed to be the saucer into which e pour the hot tea to cool. (Gee, I could have said that better!) A moderating influance. As it is now, Senators are only super-Representitves. (And not even that in states that have two Sentators and only one Rep.) We may argue about the laws we need, but more important is building or rebuilding a system that protects us from the tyrany of the majority. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-liberatian-amendment-would-you-like-to-see-in-the-constitution/120647/68 "2002-08-01T13:50:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Paul in Saudi \* > **Well, the idea is each State would send two folks they could trust to the Senate. Since nobody could tell who voted for what these guys could not campagin in the conventional sense. Niether could they be bought.** I would suggest that lack of scrutiny of the senators’ voting behaviour would leave them open to all sorts of shennanigens. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-liberatian-amendment-would-you-like-to-see-in-the-constitution/120647/69 "2002-08-01T19:19:33Z")
Why? The couldn’t be re-elected in the conventional sence. They could vote as they pleased and then tell whoever they want they voted any whichway. There would be no way for anyone (including I admit the general public) to hold them very accountable. They wouldn’t need squat for contributions. After all they would be elected by a 100 or so schoolteachers on summer vacation. I think it would take money out of the system. The love of money is the root of all evil. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-liberatian-amendment-would-you-like-to-see-in-the-constitution/120647/70 "2002-08-01T19:26:10Z")
**Paul in Saudi** , your ideas for the Senate sound suspiciously like an attempt to turn it into the British House of Lords, or the Canadian Senate, institutions which it is not and does not resemble. That’s not the original role envisioned for the Senate, and it’s not the role it’s ever held at any time in American history. How in the world would turning the Senate into a makeweight forum be good for Americans? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-liberatian-amendment-would-you-like-to-see-in-the-constitution/120647/71 "2002-08-01T20:45:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KellyM \* > \*\ ***SenorBeef** : I missed that somehow. I think **any** restriction of the right of the people to know what their representatives vote, whether or not directly elected, is anti-democratic and, quite honestly, anti-Libertarian. \*\* I wasn’t the one that proposed the system - just asked a question about it. > [@](#): > > \*\* > > It was my understanding that most Libertarians favor transparency in government. **Paul in Saudi** ’s proposal discourages transparency in government, which is generally a statist (antidemocratic) position. I find it amusing that people are offering antidemocratic solutions to the problem that, in their eyes, the people do not have enough power over government. :rolleyes: \*\* The reason having public record of congressional votes is good is because it allows people to make informed decisions on who they vote for. If the senate is elected by state legislatures, rather than the people directly, then this reason is negated. People don’t need to make an informed decision, because they don’t vote. His proposal has a certain logic, in that it would indeed hamper conventional lobbying, and since people don’t directly vote for senators, they don’t necesarily need to know how they voted. But the state legislatures would need this information to make an informed decision, so I asked. You could argue that senators are ultimately elected by the people - people might vote on state legislators based on what senator they’ve voted on historically - and that’s a valid argument. But you seem to be suggesting that his method keeps the voters out of an informed decision, without recognizing that the public at large aren’t the voters. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-liberatian-amendment-would-you-like-to-see-in-the-constitution/120647/72 "2002-08-01T21:03:10Z")
Just a historical question, but back when senators were elected by state legislatures, weren’t their votes matters of public record then? ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-liberatian-amendment-would-you-like-to-see-in-the-constitution/120647/73 "2002-08-01T22:16:34Z")
**Captain Amazing** : As far as I know, the Senate has a permanent record of every roll call vote ever held, aside from the inevitability of records being lost through the sands of time. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-liberatian-amendment-would-you-like-to-see-in-the-constitution/120647/74 "2002-08-01T22:27:26Z")
Probably. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2002, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-liberatian-amendment-would-you-like-to-see-in-the-constitution/120647/75 "2002-08-02T02:47:52Z")
Gee, i hadn’t thought of the House of Lords, and at the danger of moving off-topic, I would have to agree it was (under the old system) one of my favorite insitutions. Before the reforms, there was one homelss Lord, he went to each session to collect the per diem. There were no homeless Members of Commons. A certain number of Lords were gay, a lesser number of Commoners were. A number of Lords were in different businesses. People involved in professions generally do have the time to devote to being elected to Commons. On the other hand Lords had too few women and racial minorities. Interesting story (again hoping we do not get off-topic) the British Government-of-the-day has for years advoated lowering the age of homosexual consent to (14?) the same age as hetrosectarian consent. The British public, for whatever reason thought this was a bad idea. Time and time again their opinions were ignored by Commons and supported by Lords. Heck. Lords has worked well. (Old joke: “Well the data handles reality well, let’s see how it deals with the theory.”) You know, a Senate chosen like a jury might work. I think some Greek City-States did that. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2002, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-liberatian-amendment-would-you-like-to-see-in-the-constitution/120647/76 "2002-08-02T03:04:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Paul in Saudi \* > \*\*You know, a Senate chosen like a jury might work. I think some Greek City-States did that. \*\* Think about who tends to serve on juries and then figure out whether these are the people you want voting on whether to ratify foreign treaties, etc. No thanks. For your intents and purposes, though, **Paul** , why not just have the State Assemblies vote on how they want the Senator to vote? (I know this is impractical, but for the sake of argument…) ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2002, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-liberatian-amendment-would-you-like-to-see-in-the-constitution/120647/77 "2002-08-02T03:20:32Z")
Well, this discussion is making me think about this idea. I suppose I like it because it takes power out of the hands of people who look at opinion polls everyday. Some decisons are too important to be made by people who are swayed by the emotion of the moment. All in all in all, the direct election of the Senate was a bad idea. it opens us up to the dangers of Nativism, Populism and mob rule. These are the real dangers in the US. Or maybe I am wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-liberatian-amendment-would-you-like-to-see-in-the-constitution/120647.md?page=3)