# What living creatures can you legally torture? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 17, 2007, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-living-creatures-can-you-legally-torture/396306 "2007-03-17T05:17:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2007, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-living-creatures-can-you-legally-torture/396306/21 "2007-03-18T12:53:48Z")
[QUOTE=benny73] LSLGuy – The birds were singing their hearts out for the life that God gave them when some misguided idiot from a dysfunctional family came along and put a bb through them. I take it you never saw a bird hang upside down bleeding through its smashed beak while bubbles of blood formed as it tried to breath. Lucky you. I respectfully don’t wish to discuss this matter anymore, my friend. [/QUOTE] Benny - I apoligize. After I wrote that I decided it was both unfriendly & in poor taste & intended to not submit it. I thought I had closed the window without submitting. Apparently I screwed that up. I’m sorry to have been hostile. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2007, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-living-creatures-can-you-legally-torture/396306/22 "2007-03-18T13:50:35Z")
**bouv** and **mr. jp** , can you point to a reference that will explain why you say that bugs or lobsters can’t feel pain? Given all the evolutionary benefits for an organism to know when it’s being damaged, I find that claim really, really hard to accept. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2007, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-living-creatures-can-you-legally-torture/396306/23 "2007-03-18T13:54:18Z")
[QUOTE=bouv] 1. Lobsters do not have the capacity to feel pain. [/QUOTE] Cite? [Some experts](http://www.firstscience.com/home/perspectives/editorials/do-fish-feel-pain-the-science-behind-whether-fish-feel-pain-page-4-1_1818.html) disagree with you. [QUOTE=bouv] 1. They are dead within a few seconds of being dropped in the boiling water. [/QUOTE] Or up to two minutes, according to the previous link. [QUOTE=bouv] Yes, to us it seems cruel, but we have to remember we can \*never \* apply human characteristics to animals [/quote] Why can’t we? While I agree that we should be careful, humans are merely a particular kind of animal, so why should we assume there is a solid line between us and fellow members of our kingdom such that none of our characteristics apply to any of them? ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2007, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-living-creatures-can-you-legally-torture/396306/24 "2007-03-18T13:57:15Z")
Chickens (cocks) in Louisiana. But no longer in [New Mexico](http://www.hsus.org/hsus_field/animal_fighting_the_final_round/victory_in_new_mexico.html). Yay! ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2007, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-living-creatures-can-you-legally-torture/396306/25 "2007-03-18T14:23:44Z")
[QUOTE=benny73] LSLGuy – The birds were singing their hearts out for the life that God gave them when some misguided idiot from a dysfunctional family came along and put a bb through them. I take it you never saw a bird hang upside down bleeding through its smashed beak while bubbles of blood formed as it tried to breath. Lucky you. I respectfully don’t wish to discuss this matter anymore, my friend. [/QUOTE] So you did something that you now regret ? I would be a lot more worried if you did not regret it. In my case my father was a bit more enlightened, when I brought back a pair of pigeons, we solemnly cleaned them, roasted them and ate them together. I’m often reminded of the Sidney Poitier film where he and his son smoke cigars. General rule: killing to eat, or killing pests is Ok - killing for pleasure is not. I think you know that - go find something else to feel guilty about [sub]Sodding guilt gene, when will they wipe that out[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2007, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-living-creatures-can-you-legally-torture/396306/26 "2007-03-18T15:32:54Z")
Prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2007, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-living-creatures-can-you-legally-torture/396306/27 "2007-03-18T15:44:03Z")
[QUOTE=amarone] Cite? [Some experts](http://www.firstscience.com/home/perspectives/editorials/do-fish-feel-pain-the-science-behind-whether-fish-feel-pain-page-4-1_1818.html) disagree with you. Or up to two minutes, according to the previous link. Why can’t we? While I agree that we should be careful, humans are merely a particular kind of animal, so why should we assume there is a solid line between us and fellow members of our kingdom such that none of our characteristics apply to any of them? [/QUOTE] Ok, I decided to do a little looking on my own. That article is a bit to polemical for me to trust it, besides which, although it rejects the idea that plants feel pain, it gives the idea far more consideration than it deserves. It appears that there hasn’t been enough research to grant a firm conclusion, but the most recent study suggests that lobsters and other invertebrates most likely do not feel pain. Media sources don’t go into much detail, but the study was widely reported. [This article from The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/animalrights/story/0,11917,1408050,00.html) and [this one from CBS News](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/14/tech/main673989.shtml) are representative. [This journal article](http://dels.nas.edu/ilar_n/ilarjournal/33_1_2/V33_1_2Question.shtml) doesn’t address lobsters, but it does consider insects and cephalopods (squid and octopuses), and provides pretty convincing evidence that insects almost certainly do not feel pain, while cephalopods, the most complex and intelligent invertebrates, very likely do. If **bouv** has a more comprehensive cite on lobsters, I’d still be very interested in seeing it. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2007, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-living-creatures-can-you-legally-torture/396306/28 "2007-03-18T15:49:21Z")
[QUOTE=glee] Prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] Mostly they would be dead otherwhys ? (sic) The core came from Afghanistan, mainly survivors from the Northern Alliances’s ire, and they were supplemented by suspicious looking nomads who were sold on. Torturing people who have nothing to say makes no sense ---
**Author:** ![benny73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@benny73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/benny73)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2007, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-living-creatures-can-you-legally-torture/396306/29 "2007-03-18T16:11:51Z")
LSLGuy – I didn’t find your post hostile or anything, it was alright. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2007, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-living-creatures-can-you-legally-torture/396306/30 "2007-03-18T20:04:39Z")
[QUOTE=Alan Smithee] It appears that there hasn’t been enough research to grant a firm conclusion [on whether lobsters feel pain]. [/QUOTE] I agree. I was responding to a poster who was stating a firm position by pointing out that some experts disagree with him/her. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2007, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-living-creatures-can-you-legally-torture/396306/31 "2007-03-18T20:08:52Z")
[QUOTE=bouv] And while I think, in general, having an indoor only cat is ok, I do wonder if it really wants to see what’s beyond it’s walls [/QUOTE] Actually, for the cat’s own well being, I would think having it kept indoors all the time is much kinder. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2007, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-living-creatures-can-you-legally-torture/396306/32 "2007-03-18T20:37:58Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] In South Korea, the dogs and cats are tortured and then killed. The widely-held and, of course, baseless belief is that the torturing does something to the meat of the animal that will give the person who consumes it more stamina for sex. [/QUOTE] CATS? They eat cats in Korea? I grew up in Seoul and have never heard of people eating cats. Must be some Pusan thing. I do know that they beat dogs to death before popping them in the stew. The rationale I’ve heard is that the adrenaline released makes the meat more tender - I don’t think it has anything to do with sex-enhancing powers. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2007, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-living-creatures-can-you-legally-torture/396306/33 "2007-03-19T02:40:22Z")
Nope. It’s all over the country. And it’s illegal. Dogs and cats are not food items according to the Ministry of Agriculture. It’s illegal here to sell as food any item not designated as such by said ministry. The “rationale” for it is both: makes it more tender/tasty/healthful and makes for more stamina. If you’re interested, I can send you via PM links to the English pages of a couple of Korean animal welfare organizations that describe the killings of both critters, even in Seoul. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2007, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-living-creatures-can-you-legally-torture/396306/34 "2007-03-19T05:06:13Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] Nope. It’s all over the country. And it’s illegal. Dogs and cats are not food items according to the Ministry of Agriculture. It’s illegal here to sell as food any item not designated as such by said ministry. The “rationale” for it is both: makes it more tender/tasty/healthful and makes for more stamina. If you’re interested, I can send you via PM links to the English pages of a couple of Korean animal welfare organizations that describe the killings of both critters, even in Seoul. [/QUOTE] I Googled a bit (I can read Korean 🙂 )and…color me surprised. One of the articles said something about how the average South Korean never sees the seedier side of the dog/cat eating business - I suppose that’s true, considering I never even knew cats were also eaten (the statistics seemed to indicate that cat eating is only about a tenth of the amount of dog eating that goes on). That’s really sick (the cruelty, not the eating part). ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2007, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-living-creatures-can-you-legally-torture/396306/35 "2007-03-19T05:29:00Z")
If the slugs/salt combination is illegal then every child I know will be behind bars. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2007, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-living-creatures-can-you-legally-torture/396306/36 "2007-03-19T06:25:16Z")
[QUOTE=HazelNutCoffee] That’s really sick (the cruelty, not the eating part). [/QUOTE] There’s a whole myth created about it. Well, it’s more of a false history of the practice. The people selling the stuff will tell you it’s traditional here but it most certainly is not. The practice became widespread during or shortly after the Korean War. The advertising genius was whoever decided to tout its “medicinal effects” for sex. I think it’s probably impossible to guess the number of species that have met their demise due to some human male’s drive to get some help in that area. Another thing: there is exactly zero scientific evidence supporting all of the so-called medicinal claims for chowing down on dogs. And, of course, the sellers aren’t bothered by the little matter of serving up cat stew while telling the consumer it’s dog soup. Want to know the source for the critters? Two places: **illegal** dog/cat farms and **stolen** pets. As I mentioned above, the practice is illegal. The laws are not enforced in the slightest. In Korea, you can’t legally torture dogs or cats. But, by all accounts, you certainly can illegally torture them and have no worries about punishment. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2007, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-living-creatures-can-you-legally-torture/396306/37 "2007-03-19T16:54:25Z")
[QUOTE=OtakuLoki] **bouv** and **mr. jp** , can you point to a reference that will explain why you say that bugs or lobsters can’t feel pain? Given all the evolutionary benefits for an organism to know when it’s being damaged, I find that claim really, really hard to accept. [/QUOTE] There was a [thread on this topic](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=372632&highlight=lobster+lobsters) a few months ago. One side defined pain as the reaction to damage, another side said that in some life forms, this is a programmed reaction that does not involve a conscious recognition of pain as humans know it. However, it’s a hijack for this thread. ---
**Author:** ![audiobottle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@audiobottle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/audiobottle)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2007, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-living-creatures-can-you-legally-torture/396306/38 "2007-03-19T17:15:29Z")
I had never heard they ate cats in Korea either (I’m Korean as well), but it seems like **Monty** is saying that it’s not intentional. Is that the case? From what I gathered in your post. it sounds like people think they’re eating dog but it’s actually cat. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2007, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-living-creatures-can-you-legally-torture/396306/39 "2007-03-20T01:29:14Z")
[Here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzZRzB04KQQ) is footage of a camel spider and a mouse in a bucket. I guess those guys were bored. Edit: Don’t click the link if you’re squeamish. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2007, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-living-creatures-can-you-legally-torture/396306/40 "2007-03-20T02:14:15Z")
[QUOTE=audiobottle] I had never heard they ate cats in Korea either (I’m Korean as well), but it seems like **Monty** is saying that it’s not intentional. Is that the case? From what I gathered in your post. it sounds like people think they’re eating dog but it’s actually cat. [/QUOTE] Right. Eating cat is not intentional on the part of the person consuming the feline as they are purchasing (illegally, mind you) canine. It’s also quite well-known here among the population how the _dog_ is treated to “create the desired result.” I will refrain from posting my opinion of the people selling and of those consuming the “fare” as this is GQ and I don’t curse anymore. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-living-creatures-can-you-legally-torture/396306.md?page=1)