# What Makes a Book Classic Literature? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [July 21, 2022, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-book-classic-literature/968331 "2022-07-21T17:15:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats2)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2022, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-book-classic-literature/968331/1 "2022-07-21T17:15:16Z")
What does a book have to have to be “classic literature”? Age? Does the author have to be dead? Dead for a certain number of years? Acceptable content? Can the unfortunately racist _Gone with the Wind_ ever be considered a classic? Still read by the general public? What makes _The Sound and the Fury_ a classic while something not read anymore like _Ramona_ is not? Is _Rebecca_ a classic? Does the famous movie made from it make it a classic? Is _Treasure Island_ a classic even if it’s geared toward younger readers? Will _Harry Potter_ be classics once JK Rowling is gone? Or are they classics now? Does a classic have to be fiction? Is _Common Sense_ classic literature? Does a non-fiction book have to have an impact on history to be considered a classic? I know these are a lot of questions. _Reading Lolita in Tehran_ set me thinking about this stuff. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2022, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-book-classic-literature/968331/2 "2022-07-21T17:26:43Z")
I was always taught that a classic was a work that is still appreciated and valued years after its time. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2022, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-book-classic-literature/968331/3 "2022-07-21T17:30:48Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](#): > > Age? Does the author have to be dead? Dead for a certain number of years? I think of “classic literature” as works that have “passed the test of time”: books that are still read and appreciated by a significant number of people long after they were published. But I can’t quatify how many a “significant number” is nor how long “long after” is. > [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](#): > > Is _Treasure Island_ a classic even if it’s geared toward younger readers? I’d say yes (even though it’s not a personal favorite of mine). “Children’s classics” is a thing. > [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](#): > > Does a classic have to be fiction? Is _Common Sense_ classic literature? Does a non-fiction book have to have an impact on history to be considered a classic? Certainly, there exist works of nonfiction that are considered “classics.” They may or may not be considered “literature.” (“Literature” is not just confined to fiction.) But it takes more than _just_ historical importance or influence to make something “classic literature.” I haven’t read _Common Sense_, so I can’t opine on how it should be classified. There are some books, including novels (_Uncle Tom’s Cabin_, _The Jungle_, _In His Steps_), that, while they may have _some_ literary value, are still read today at least partly for their historical importance and the influence they have had, that goes far beyond their value as literature. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2022, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-book-classic-literature/968331/4 "2022-07-21T17:39:11Z")
It’s “classic” when it can be inflicted on generations of reluctant students, regardless of how unreadable it may be for modern audiences. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2022, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-book-classic-literature/968331/5 "2022-07-21T19:47:33Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](#): > > Acceptable content? Can the unfortunately racist _Gone with the Wind_ ever be considered a classic? According to a lot of people, Gone with the Wind already IS a recognized classic. I tend to agree. as for the racist content, considering that a good book will inevitably be shaped by its own times, that ought not to be a bar to considering something a “Classic”, but ought to be expected. Question for discussion – IS Gone with the Wind racist? It tells the story of the Civil War from the point of view of a privileged woman from the slave-holding class. If it presents a picture of slaves as happy and content with their station, and as infantilized, isn’t that exactly what you would _expect_ of someone with that mindset? I don’t know if Margaret Mitchell herself suffered under such assumptions. > [@](#): > > The novel has been criticized for promoting plantation values and romanticizing the white supremacy of the antebellum south. Mitchell biographer Marianne Walker, author of _Margaret Mitchell and John Marsh: The Love Story Behind Gone with the Wind_ , believes that those who attack the book on these grounds have not read it. She said that the popular 1939 film “promotes a false notion of the [Old South](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_South)”. Mitchell was not involved in the screenplay or film production.[[118]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gone_with_the_Wind_(novel)#cite_note-118) > **[Gone with the Wind (novel)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gone_with_the_Wind_(novel))** > > Gone with the Wind is a novel by American writer Margaret Mitchell, first published in 1936. The story is set in Clayton County and Atlanta, both in Georgia, during the American Civil War and Reconstruction Era. It depicts the struggles of young Scarlett O'Hara, the spoiled daughter of a well-to-do plantation owner, who must use every means at her disposal to claw her way out of poverty following Sherman's destructive "March to the Sea". This historical novel features a coming-of-age story, wit... ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats2)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2022, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-book-classic-literature/968331/6 "2022-07-21T19:52:55Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I don’t know if Margaret Mitchell herself suffered under such assumptions. Oh, I’m sure she did. As the omniscient narrator, it’s clear what her opinions are. The ever present question is should we judge previous generations by current standards? I’ve always felt we should not. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2022, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-book-classic-literature/968331/7 "2022-07-21T19:53:03Z")
“A classic is something that everybody wants to have read and nobody wants to read.” - Mark Twain ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2022, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-book-classic-literature/968331/8 "2022-07-22T19:48:52Z")
An additional factor is that character(s) or situations from a work enter the general culture in their own right as somehow typical examples. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2022, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-book-classic-literature/968331/9 "2022-07-22T20:05:39Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](#): > > Does a classic have to be fiction? Is _Common Sense_ classic literature? Does a non-fiction book have to have an impact on history to be considered a classic? _Common Sense_ is not so much classic literature as it is a classic political thought. The standards used to determine what qualifies as a classic in philosophy and political science differ considerably from that used to determine what qualifies as a classic in literature. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-book-classic-literature/968331/10 "2022-07-23T06:18:11Z")
I’ve long thought that a classic generally has to be public domain. Lots of them are not necessarily all that good, but they are necessarily free. So they show up textbooks, and generations of students learn about them, and that becomes the baseline for what makes a good story. And then there are some stories that are just that good. ---
**Author:** ![Moonrise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonrise/32/14764_2.png) [@Moonrise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonrise)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-book-classic-literature/968331/11 "2022-07-23T10:31:42Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](#): > > Age? Does the author have to be dead? Dead for a certain number of years? No, but it helps. Kidding aside, I think that relevance beyond the time of writing is what defines a classic. Therefore, decades at least or centuries preferably must pass before this can be assessed. The authors are usually dead by then. > [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](#): > > Acceptable content? Can the unfortunately racist _Gone with the Wind_ ever be considered a classic? Acceptable to whom ? To our times ? A classic is still a classic if some of its message rings true to this day, even if parts of it appear dated or offensive to our sensibilities. A “classic” that has absolutely no redeeming value anymore stops being a classic. These things are fluid, too. > [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](#): > > Still read by the general public? What makes _The Sound and the Fury_ a classic while something not read anymore like _Ramona_ is not? Perhaps not read but at least known. I like the Mark Twain quote, by the way. > [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](#): > > Is _Rebecca_ a classic? Does the famous movie made from it make it a classic? A classic of literature, or any other art, stands on its own. It doesn’t need crutches from other media, although in some cases, adaptations surpass the source material, e.g. **Shakespeare** , who only wrote 2 original plots. > [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](#): > > Is _Treasure Island_ a classic even if it’s geared toward younger readers? Will _Harry Potter_ be classics once JK Rowling is gone? Or are they classics now? _Harry Potter_ may be on its way to becoming a classic. > [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](#): > > Does a classic have to be fiction? Is _Common Sense_ classic literature? Does a non-fiction book have to have an impact on history to be considered a classic? As pointed out above, some non-fiction books are classics in every field. Here’s [one](https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/L/bo24426144.html). ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-book-classic-literature/968331/12 "2022-07-23T10:36:11Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > I’ve long thought that a classic generally has to be public domain. Which rules out most science fiction and fantasy, including The Lord of the Rings, Foundation, I, Robot, Dune, Rendezvous With Rama, Stranger in a Strange Land, and pretty much anything else written after the death of H.P. Lovecraft. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-book-classic-literature/968331/13 "2022-07-23T14:42:32Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Question for discussion – IS Gone with the Wind racist? It tells the story of the Civil War from the point of view of a privileged woman from the slave-holding class. If it presents a picture of slaves as happy and content with their station, and as infantilized, isn’t that exactly what you would _expect_ of someone with that mindset? I don’t know if Margaret Mitchell herself suffered under such assumptions. Mitchell objected to having black women in any of her classes at Smith College, where she went to for a year: > **[Disarming the Nation](https://books.google.com/books?id=RtoP90_AK6EC&newbks=0&printsec=frontcover&pg=PA243&dq=margaret%2Bmitchell%2Bobjected%2Bto%2Ba%2Bblack%2Bclassmate%2Bat%2BSmith%2BCollege&hl=en)** > > In a study that will radically shift our understanding of Civil War literature, Elizabeth Young shows that American women writers have been profoundly influenced by the Civil War and that, in turn, their works have contributed powerfully to... ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-book-classic-literature/968331/14 "2022-07-23T14:56:07Z")
There is no such thing as a precise definition of “classic literature”. Like many words and phrases, it is just a vague term like those that many people use. Their definitions of the words overlap but aren’t remotely the same. You might want to read the book _Surfaces and Essences_ by Hofstadter and Sander. Many words in all languages don’t have precise definitions that allow you to say whether a thing clearly fits the definition of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-book-classic-literature/968331/15 "2022-07-23T15:06:17Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > I’ve long thought that a classic generally has to be public domain. I am dubious. As far as I can remember my own school days, the textbooks and things we read included plenty of works recent enough that they would not have been in the public domain at the time. But even if we grant that being in the public domain is a necessary condition for a book to be considered “classic literature,” it is certainly not a sufficient condition. There are huge numbers of works that are in the public domain but are today completely forgotten. And I suspect that there are very few works old enough to be in the public domain that are considered classics, that weren’t already well on their way to being considered classics before they entered the public domain. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-book-classic-literature/968331/16 "2022-07-23T16:46:19Z")
And also most of Hemingway, Faulkner, Steinbeck, Fitzgerald, and Willa Cather. Ralph Ellison and Harper Lee. _Lolita_, _Catch-22_, _The Catcher in the Rye_, _Slaughterhouse-5_. Public domain is a very poor criterion. Even 50 years is stretching it. _Gravity’s Rainbow_ wouldn’t make it until next year. Potter Stewart said it best about classic literature: “I know it when I see it.” Oops. He was talking about porn. Oh well, eye of the beholder and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-book-classic-literature/968331/17 "2022-07-23T17:48:44Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](#): > > Still read by the general public? What makes _The Sound and the Fury_ a classic while something not read anymore like _Ramona_ is not? A lot of people do consider the Ramona series to be classics. They are still read a lot. If your distinction is that children’s books can’t be classics, there are a lot of people who disagree with you. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-book-classic-literature/968331/18 "2022-07-23T17:51:16Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Potter Stewart said it best about classic literature: “I know it when I see it.” Oops. He was talking about porn. Oh well, eye of the beholder and all that. Pornography is another example of what I was talking about. Like a lot of words, it doesn’t have an exact definition. People’s definition of the word overlaps a lot, but it’s unlikely that two people using the word will agree on what exactly is and isn’t pornography. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-book-classic-literature/968331/19 "2022-07-23T17:55:57Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > A lot of people do consider the Ramona series to be classics. They are still read a lot. If your distinction is that children’s books can’t be classics, there are a lot of people who disagree with you. Perhaps @Two_Many_Cats2 was referring to this Ramona? > **[Ramona](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramona)** > > Ramona (1884) is an American novel written by Helen Hunt Jackson. Set in Southern California after the Mexican–American War and annexation of the territory by the United States, it explores the life of a mixed-race Scottish–Native American orphan girl. The story was inspired by the marriage of Hugo Reid and Victoria Reid. > Originally serialized weekly in the Christian Union, the novel became immensely popular. It has had more than 300 printings, and has been adapted five times as a film. A pla... I admit, I wasn’t thinking of either of these. I vaguely imagined that _Ramona_ was an older novel along the lines of Samuel Richardson’s [Pamela](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamela;_or,_Virtue_Rewarded) or Henry Fielding’s [Amelia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amelia_(novel)), and I may also have been thinking of George Eliot’s novel [Romola](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romola). ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2022, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-book-classic-literature/968331/20 "2022-07-23T18:02:44Z")
Does that raise the question of just who among those previous generations is being counted as representative? On the question of slavery, might lots of enslaved people and John Brown might well be used to judge Margaret Mitchell? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-book-classic-literature/968331.md?page=2)